Different time, different players........
I don't always agree with Maddon, more times than you may think, but I am really getting tired of the obsessive hatred and dislike towards him in spite of all that he has done......He is not perfect, he makes mistakes, but in spite of all the team has gone through this year with injuries, anemic hitting, musical chairs at 3B, the Rays are NOT below .500, they are NOT in last place and the fact is they are still in the race........No other manager could have done with the Rays what Maddon has done since 2008, mistakes and all!
Keep on hating Maddon but get used to it because he will be here for a very long time and continue to make this team a winner whether they play in St. Pete, Tampa, Oklahoma City, Omaha or Sacremento!
I am done with it and all the ignorance!
At least with a few like tkrng, whether we agree or disagree it's done with intelligence and knowledge!
Have fun with your obsession with Maddon!! Sayanora!!
The question was:"A few times, you have compared Joe with Gil Hodges. I have a question- All things being equal and if Gil managed this rays team, would Hodges have pitched JP as often and in the critical situations the way Joe pitched him. Or would BJ be playing centerfield for Gil every day like BJ does. Read THIS QUESTION right- the answer is just a simple yes or no... no hemming/hawing."
"All things being equal and if Gil managed this rays team"your answer:Different time, different players...........You lost a lot of creditability-. And YOU KNOW I've have disagreed with you in the past, but I have always done so, sometimes in jest and others saying something complimentary along with it. But I can't help but think of all the times you berated and belittled other posters with name calling and trying to uncover their ignorance. Arrogant- Rude. You chase baseball fans off this board.
You are the only guy on here with this idol worship thing with Maddon (unless some kindhearted soul steps up now out of pity) He is just a man.The only one with a strange obsession with Maddon is you.
Lets NOT respond to each other anymore- I'll even end this using your word, its a good one-"Sayanora"
Rather than crediting Maddon ... I'd rather give Howell the credit for being physically and mentally able to make a useful comeback. I will give Maddon credit (and/or Hickey and/or Borowski) for the generally very effective use of the bullpen over the last few seasons (excluding how Howell was handled last season).
I have noticed that Joyce unleashes a very awkward ... and uncharacteristic for him ... swing from time-to-time. And ... now that you mention it ... I've also seen the same with Zobrist ... on both sides of the plate. So ... I guess it's a given that back pain or problems could obviously be affecting both of them. Naturally, I wouldn't know what those problems are in the real world ... but I'd rather see both out in treatment than performing at a reduced level and in a limited capacity. Win or lose in the end ... bring in some Durham guys and let Joyce and/or Zobrist get the medical and/or therapeutic care they need.
Naturally I agree that the Rays injury bug has been working overtime this season ... but ... it's just a problem that has to be worked around. There are guys waiting in the wings in Durham that might have been used as replacements as necessary ... and ... I don't think the DL has actually affected this team as significatnly as some contend. And, I do believe the team may have eked-out a couple more wins over the last three months had Maddon tried to stabilize the line-up and batting order a little rather than rotating the position players and the batting order as he has. Of course ... there are those who might take the other side ... insisting that Maddon's musical chairs actually resulted in more wins than the team would have had had Maddon not acted like the mad chemist. (?)
And I do casually follow the DL and other listings of injuries ... and ... you're right ... I don't recall EVER seeing so many injuries around both leagues as seem to have occurred thus far this season. (Although ... I do believe there are some potential shortcomings in ongoing physical training and preparation ... and I have thought that for some time as far as baseball goes.)
Good game today! Good series! Hitters hit and pitchers allowed only 12 hits over three games!
Musical positions and musical batting orders continue ... and drive me batty (I know, short trip!) ... but Maddon looks like a genius over the last three games ... OR ... Longoria's mere presence actually elevates the whole team ... a veritable messiah! (The energy level was definitely up for all three games!)
Seven games over at the moment! If carried forward the rest of the way ... that equals 88 wins! That sure as h*ll wouldn't be bad under the circumstances! Still some tough games this month ... and September is brutal ... but ... these three games have looked a little bit like the Rays of the past four seasons! Finally!
If "boneheaded decisions" actually result in wins ... are they still "boneheaded decisions"???
As I've said dozens of times ... I don't like the musical position players and the musical batting orders ... but this series was a sweep ... a good one ... and it looks like it could be the turnaround point for both the starting pitchers (only 12 hits allowed over three games) and the hitting. (?)
And, in the end, if Maddon's team wins, say, 88 games ... there's certainly no way to PROVE, demonstrate or evidence that some other manager making some different decisions would have won more games with the same team against the same opposition.
As a rose-is-a-rose-is-a-rose ... so to is ... an opinion-is-an-opinion-is-an-opinion. Nothing more.
Well ... I definitely don't go for "the constant shuffling and uncertainty" ... and that's DEFINITELY a Joe Maddon trademark ... and he seems to do it without necessity ... and, in most cases, he seems to do it without any legitimate (or at least conventional) rationale and/or reasoning ... BUT ... they're seven games up over .500! (???)
I might scream and yell and call his moves "boneheaded" ... but ... if they WIN ... how does one PROVE his decisions and moves were "wrong"? The object of the game is "to win" ... and if you win ... the end would seem to justify the means, wouldn't it? (In any event ... I'm sure that's what HE counts on to justify some of his more outlandish decisions and moves!)
And, yes, it would seem that most managers would put their best hitters in the line-up every day ... and, yes, that is a real gripe of mine regarding Maddon ... but ... once again ... he's had batting orders with as many as four guys with batting averages UNDER .200 ... and with only two guys hitting OVER .250 (barely) ... and they've won a lot of those games. (???)
Someone else here mentioned the idea that Maddon does a lot of this unconventional stuff just to get an extra dose of attention ... and ... that may well be true to some degree. (???)
Anyway ... three excellent wins just concluded ... they're seven games over .500 ... and the starting pitchers and some of the hitters seem to be getting into a good groove. (???)
Well, there can never been any indisputable or empirical evidence of that opinion as long as the team wins ... and even if the team loses ... there's no way to empirically determine if the losing is his fault, the fault of inferior players, or the fault of any number of other relevant factors.
They're seven games to the good at the moment ... with some of the worst hitters on any team in the MLs ... with starting pitching that has been inconsistent for two-thirds of the season ... there have been significant defensive lapses ... and yet ... they're seven games to the good!
The name of the game is winning. And ... if they're winning ... you'd have to agree that the winning ... the end result ... justifies the means. If they should be able to win 87-88-89 games ... and especially if they should even back into the second wildcard ... Maddon will get another bunch of ALMOTY votes!
Even the Pope aggravates some of the people some of the time!
v LHP: AVG/OBP/SLUG/OPS
Pena: .162/.276/.315/.592Scott: .167/.233/.295/.527
Upton: .217/.304/.358/.662Jennings: .215/.300/.329/.629S Rod: .216/.346/.250/.596Johnson: .158/.273/.289/.562Roberts: .091/.091/.182/.273
Exactly the point of all our complaining--- just play your best options available. Out of the choices Maddon has, Joyce and Keppinger should have been his best daily choices---period! It's not like a Cano or Hamilton are sitting at the end of the bench! Injury may be the reason, but given Joe's history with Joyce, it is always a ????
But with Longo's return, things are looking so much better. What the team needs is more offense so keep him as a DH with occaisional day off and forget about playing Longoria in the field until next year. (don't know what that means for Scott once he's healthy....carrying two DHs won't work?)
With the fantastic all around pitching performances of late, they don't need substanially more offense. Just HOPE they can stay healthy and this could be a great finish. Go Rays!
The ONLY purpose in playing the pro game is to win ... otherwise they wouldn't keep score and reward playoff teams with dozens of millions of dollars extra each season.
Beyond that, in the real world, it seems ridiculous to chastise the manager when his team wins ... especially since presiding over and maintaining a winning team is the primary objective of his job.
But, if you're more a student of "managing" and "coaching" than you are a fan of winning ... well, that's OK. Personally, I find that Maddon does or doesn't do a lot of things over a season that I do not agree with and that I would have done differently ... but ... if the end result is a winning season and maybe qualifying for the playoffs ... it makes griping about Maddon and his ways irrelevant.
And, of course, a "wrong" move or decision by the manager ... and winning the game ... are certainly not always mutually exclusive. I'm sure there have been games where you were critical of something Maddon did ... believing he did the "wrong" thing ... but the team still won.