Indians should move to Columbus as well as the Browns. The market there is twice the size of Cleveland. 393,806 - Jul 2011Source: U.S. Census Bureau
Columbus Ohio797,434 - Jul 2011Source: U.S. Census Bureau
The Browns would fill the Horseshoe every Sunday and with that revenue maybe they could be a contender.
The Indians would also draw more fans and more revenue.
Both of these teams could also keep their NE Ohio fan base with this move.
I can't disagree with you on any of that. What i was thinking was taking away the small market arguement from the Dolans. Plus the Browns with 40k more attendance.
"There are more than enough baseball fans in this area to support a successful Indians team though. The attendance and team success relationship is even noticeable this year. The crowds were starting to get larger before the losing streak."
I want to agree with you...but if that were the case, we would have been better than 21st in attendance in 2007 when we won 96 games and were in first place basically all season.
That isn't a realistic statement about 07. Everyone knows ticket sales are most directly effected by the previous season. We stunk in 06. Season ticket sales (the foundation of any franchise's attendance) were up in 08. We stunk in 08, so no one went to the games and people didn't renew their season tickets. The ones who did def got rid of them after the 09 fire sale so that the poor dolans didn't lose money. You have to put a consistent product on the field (winning one) to build up season ticket sales. Indians don't do that. This is on ownership, not the fans.
Ownership had their chance. They brought in more fans in 07 than they anticipated and they didn't do anything to improve the team. They signed: Jamey Carroll and Kobyashi.
Attendance is most positively impacted from season ticket sales. Those are typically based off of the previous season's success or failure and confidence in ownership to produce a product worth investing thousands of dollars into (something the Dolans don't even do...think about it, when you buy a ticket/merch/beer/hotdog/brauts, you are giving Larry and Paul Dolan money to pay players and employees. They don't use their own money, they use yours....something to think about).
anyways. That is why attendance wouldn't be "amazing" in 07, but it does explain why season ticket sales and pre-season single ticket sales were up prior to the 08 season. Then they stunk, so people stopped going to the games (because the Dolans didn't do anything with the extra money they got from the unexpected attendance boost and extra income from the playoffs and playoff money from the league).
Okay, but if it's all about season ticket sales...wouldn't our total attendance have gone up in 2006 (after we won 92 games in 2005) and in 2008 (after we won 96 in 2007)? If it was as simple as what you're saying, fans would have been buying season tickets PRIOR to 2006 and PRIOR to 2008. Therefore, our attendance records should have been up in 06 and 08 right? Nope. 23rd in 08 and 25th in 06.
It's such a catch-22 in baseball if you're not a major market team. There is absolutely no guarantee in cities like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa, etc. that if you put a winner on the field, your attendance will go up to support your spending. That's why I truly feel that the only way we see a consistent winner here is if the Dolan family either sells the team to an owner that CAN spend at a deficit for a few years in order to improve the team and build the fan base back up, or at least look for some minority stake holders to invest in the company and buy up 50% of it or something.
" That is why attendance wouldn't be "amazing" in 07, but it does explain why season ticket sales and pre-season single ticket sales were up prior to the 08 season. Then they stunk, so people stopped going to the games (because the Dolans didn't do anything with the extra money they got from the unexpected attendance boost and extra income from the playoffs and playoff money from the league)."
But this is a direct contradiction of the idea that if you put a winner on the field in one year, your attendance numbers will go up the next. According to you, season tickets is what it's all about. If you buy season tickets, those ticket sales show up in attendance regardless if you go to one game or 80. So even though we stunk in 08, our season ticket sales still should have been large enough to put us higher than 23rd in attendance.
Becuase we stunk and no one went to the games after mid june-july. Sure if 100 people buy season tickets they are on the hook for the whole year, but I am not going to go to a game if they are horrible (like they were in 06 and 08).
Pre -Season (season and single game) ticket sales for the 08 season were up from the previous year's pre season ticket sales. (i don't remember about 06).
Maybe i didn't explain myself clearly before. We had more tickets sold for the 08 season before game #1, than we did the 07 season, before game #1.
don't worry, i am 100% right. Basically every person who understands ticket sales in sports agrees with me. It's cool, don't fight it...just lay back, accept it for it's correctness, and take it for the pleasurable experience that it is.
here read these, maybe you'll get a more clear pictures
"don't worry, i am 100% right. Basically every person who understands ticket sales in sports agrees with me. It's cool, don't fight it...just lay back, accept it for it's correctness, and take it for the pleasurable experience that it is."
LOL LOL you don't have to be an idi0t about it, I am trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. Maybe that is my mistake for thinking you are capable of such conversation.
I know you think you understand everything there is to understand about attendance, but I can assure you--you do not. Why? Because nobody does. Attendance figures and drawing fans is an area of this sport that we still really do not understand a great deal. I actually had the pleasure of listening to a panel discussion about this topic at Boston U a week or so ago led by Dave Cameron. It was an excellent discussion that raised a ton of questions.
All I'm saying is that it's not as simple as "put a winner on the field and the fans will show up." If it was that simple, our season ticket sales would have been huge going into the 2006 and 2008 seasons. Maybe they increased as you say, but they couldn't have increased very much, because our total attendance figures were lower in 08 than they were in 07.
In my opinion, it's going to take at least 4-5 years of consistent winning--playoff teams--to really bring fans back to the ballpark. And by "bring the fans back" I mean an attendance at least in the top half of the league. In order to win 4-5 years in a row, in this day and age, I'd estimate it'll take a payroll in the top 15 in the league as well. What this means for the Dolans (or anybody perspective buyer) is that they have to be willing to endure 4-5 years of low attendance (and therefore low merchandise, vendor sales, etc.) while carrying a relatively high payroll before they can expect to see a real return on their investment. And even at that point, there is no guarantee we will ever pack the stadium.
I don't believe the Dolans are willing to do that. And I would wager that most millionaires, or even billionaires, would not be willing to do that either.