I've been a M's fan since '78 (okay, it took me a year to catch on) - but I don't see Ichiro's comments as a rip on Seattle at all - more like he just feels more appreciated in NY.

I can't say I blame him - considering the Ichiro bashing that was happening before he left.

He could've said how impressed he was with his New York reception without the invidious comparison with Seattle fans. The fans at Safeco showed him plenty of love through the years. And he'll find that the Yankees won't ponder whether to retain him if he tanks, the way this franchise did. They'll drop him in the proverbial New York minute, because they're all about winning, and nobody except Jeter is indispensible...and even Jeter got miffed by their cool approach to his last contract negotiations. In the Bronx, you're only as good as your last few at-bats. He'll find that out soon enough. He was king of the hill for years in Seattle; he's just one more player there.

"Comparing singles (skillful perhaps, but singles nevertheless) generated on a long time loser team, versus a HR IN YANKEE STADIUM WITH THE YANKS IN 1ST PLACE, is not a valid comparison of crowd enthusiasm."

Obviously, this is true. Like I said, the first year I lived in Seattle (2003), Safeco Field had a great atmosphere.

I can remember SPECIFICALLY the end of the Mariners dynasty. If you recall, Jeff Nelson made some remarks criticizing GM Pat Gillick for never making the big trade deadline move to give the team that extra boost for a playoff push.

I guess Gillick said, "You want me to make a move, Jeff Nelson? Here. You're traded to the Yankees for Armando Benitez."

I don't know if you have players like this, but Armando Benitez is one of those guys where every time I ever see him pitch in any kind of important game, he f**ks up.

I'm from NY, so going back as far as 1995, it didn't matter if Benitez was throwing 100 MPH, had a 1.11 ERA, had struck-out 47 batters in the last twenty innings. He must have had a 0.13 ERA in other games, because whenever I watched him pitch, Armando Benitez gave-up at least one run, usually more, and often failed to finish the inning.

So, when the Mariners traded Nelson for Benitez, I knew the Mariners were doomed.

On Sept. 9th, 2003, the M's were one game back of the A's for the AL West lead. They were in a virtual tie with the Red Sox for the Wild Card. They also had the best Run Differential in the AL.

That day, the M's were playing the last-place Rangers. The M's jumped out to a 4-0 lead. Ryan Franklin pitched 7.33 innings, allowing just one run.

The M's were winning 4-1 with one out and nobody on base in the top of the eighth. For reasons I don't know, Manager Bob Melvin removed Franklin, who was at 105 pitches. Arthur Rhodes entered the game and allowed a groundball single.

Enter Armando Benitez - one out, one on, top 8th, M's winning 4-1. Benitez walked Alex Rodriguez, before allowing a three-run HR to Rafael Palmeiro to tie the game at four.

The Mariners went on to lose this game in extra innings. One week later, the M's were four games behind the A's in the AL West, and trailed the Red Sox by two games for the Wild Card. A week later still, the Mariners were five games in back of the A's, and four games behind the Red Sox.

Basically, as a fan, with some exceptions here and there, it has all been downhill for this organization since Sept. 9th, 2003. The M's haven't given fans that much to cheer about.

"When the Yankees were often bad in the late 80s/early 90s, their attendance (in one of the most populous, wealthy cities on the planet) was (relatively) weak. And the Yanks actually finished last only once."

I can tell you from personal experience that that's certainly true. But those days were fun, in a way. Old Yankee Stadium was a pretty cool, old building, and when no one was showing up at the games, you could buy a seat in the upper deck, and gradually move your way down.

Plus, the fans who did show up at those games were much cooler. I mean, back then, an upper deck seat was $3-6. So, it was, like, 20,000 old New Yorkers with home-made scorecards and transistor radios. And Dave LaPoint was the ace of the staff.

I miss those days!

'Ichiro's biggest moment so far in New York came when he hit a home run in Monday's 5-4 loss to the Orioles. It was a momentous shot for the veteran, the 100th of his career, but he'll remember it more for the reaction from Yankees fans.

'"I don't know if it was because it was my first home run as a Yankee or because it was my 100th home run, but I don't think I have ever received that kind of ovation from the fans -- that many and that loud," Ichiro said. "Maybe it was the first time in my career I received something that big."'

Really?

I really think he was just swept up in the moment. I mean he came from Japan where he is a god and fans are way more animated and vocal. If he meant it as a put down then he was putting down all his early career top moments too in Japan.

"The truth is, your perception of the rabidness of the fans depends entirely on what kind of game it is (playoffs or a rivalry game, like the Sox-Yanks or the Mets-Yanks) and where you're sitting. I've sat in the bleachers and, of course, in the midst of an orchestrated hubbub raised by the world's most obscene, tasteless, vulgar fans..."

The truth is, your perception has to do with whether or not you hate Yankees fans and the City of New York.

I grew-up in the Bronx. I went to my first Yankees game in 1985. When I was a kid and a teenage, NYC was my playground. My best friend to this day, his family lives on 165th and Grand Concourse. The old Stadium was on 161st St. The New one is a couple blocks north, so now, they're even closer.

I used to play catch on what is now the New Yankee Stadium. It used to be a park.

I know there's a lot of bad stuff about NY, but there's a lot of really awesome stuff, as well. I've seen lousy stuff happen at Yankee Stadium, but I had some really good times there, even when our 3-4 hitters were Mel Hall and Steve Balboni.

I don't hate NYC and their fans the way you do. I'm not going to sh*t all over people from a different city just because I don't like their sports teams. I've attended sporting events my whole life. I understand that's the way sports fans are.

I don't think the New Yankee Stadium has the same feeling as the old place. The Old Stadium was very unique. And it was old. Old stuff is cool. There was something really cool about watching the field where Joe DiMaggio played, where Lou Gehrig played. Where all of these great, legendary ballplayers played.

Truth is, New Yankee Stadium is like Safeco Field with more bars, a bigger concourse, and no roof. And no Puget Sound. Although they do have garlic fries. And now, everyone who works there is all nice and sh*t. It's weird. I mean, it was attractive, mild mannered young people taking my ticket, smiling, helping me find my seats. In the old days, Yankee Stadium was staffed exclusively by mean, old men in their '70's, with very little patience.

"Nowadays, sure. Safeco is half-empty and we've been watching a struggling, losing team piling up futile seasons for several years now, with a loser managing the team."

You're pretty negative about everything, aren't you? I don't get the hostility towards Eric Wedge. I don't see how Wedge is holding this team back. They need some better players, and they need some of the players they have now to play better.

"Ichiro so ready to rip the Seattle fans who idolized him for 10 years? Apparently so."

I think you're looking at this all wrong. I think the proper way to look at it is, Ichiro has not really played a meaningful game in September since 2003, which was nine years ago. He's getting older, and can see the end of his career. His team has finished in last place six of the past eight years, and is in the middle of making it seven of nine.

He's suddenly traded to the Yankees, where, instead of being ten games out of the playoff picture, Ichiro's now in first-place. He hits a game-tying HR in his first series in Yankee Stadium, and he gets a standing ovation.

He's asked how he feels after the game, and he tells the Yankees reporter that those are the loudest cheers he remembers hearing.

Do you really see a guy who's ripping Seattle; or, do you see a guy who has kinda been having a lousy season for a guy used to getting 225 hits a year, and he gets a big hit, and the fans give him a curtain call, and he's trying to ingratiate himself to his new fanbase?

" Let him have his fun in New York, and may they go into a tailspin while the M's make an unthinkable charge towards the Wild Card. It'd serve him right."

You might want to gargle with some salt water and baking soda to wash away all that bitterness.

"The truth is, your perception has to do with whether or not you hate Yankees fans and the City of New York."

Once again, you resort to your bullsht about me hating the city I was born in and in which I live right now. You really can be a dishonest as*hole, dale. You return to this same lie every time we have a discussion about the Yankees. Guess what -- loving the City of New York isn't synonymous with loving the goddamned Yankees. I'm a Mets fan. There are millions of us in New York who can't stand the Yankees, so stow your bullsht equation. I'm in New York -- where are you? That's right, living 3,000 miles away from the city you love so much. F-ck you.

"Once again, you resort to your bullsht about me hating the city I was born in and in which I live right now."

It's tough to tell. You're obviously bitter as cup of p*ss when it comes to the Yankees and their fans.

Of course, you're pretty bitter and negative towards the Mariners - their fans, their players, their manager - too.

"You really can be a dishonest as*hole, dale."

Maybe you're just a bitter, negative guy. Sure seems like it. You're kinda an amusing person with whom to deal, is that you continually insult people to their face and call them names.

Right now, you're calling me an a-hole. You call Yankees fans "the world's most obscene, tasteless, vulgar fans," and say Yankee Stadium is "one-of-a-kind bedlam." Which it is. That's why it's such a fun place to watch a game. (Well, the old Stadium, anyway. The new stadium is a little sterile. It lacks personality, and is way too commercial.)

OK. You think I'm an a-hole. You hate the Yankees and their fans. Well, I don't give a s**t. Having grown-up in NY and attended dozens of games in both Seattle and NY, it's rare that Safeco Field gets as energized as Yankee Stadium.

Safeco has its moments. I've seen Safeco go crazy during some stellar Felix Hernandez moments.

But it's not the same atmosphere as NY, where the Yankees are always in contention, and there's 50,000 screaming fans almost every game.

And you're going to call Ichiro a d**k for hitting a HR, getting a standing ovation, and being happy about it.

Listen, let us all know when you see something that makes you happy. Next time that happens will be the first.

"That's right, living 3,000 miles away from the city you love so much. F-ck you."

Has anybody told you what a comically-ridiculous dips**t you are? There's a lot of stuff I like about Seattle way more than NYC. Let's start with the cost of living and the weather.

All I'm saying is that Yankee Stadium is a louder, more exciting place to watch a baseball game than Safeco Field. If that p*sses you off, go tell it to your therapist. Nobody else gives a s***.

"he's trying to ingratiate himself to his new fanbase"

At least you got that part right.

"But it's not the same atmosphere as NY, where the Yankees are always in contention, and there's 50,000 screaming fans almost every game."

Anybody who watched the last Mariners games in New York knows that what I said -- that the level of intensity in Yankee Stadium depends on the nature of the game -- is true. The place was hardly "rocking" during that series. And it's also true that where you're sitting in any stadium can affect your perception of the raucousness of the fans. If you're in the middle of King's Court, Safeco is going to "rock" a lot more from your point of view than if you're in the corner of the right field seats. That's just common sense.

But, when the Yankees enter the discussion, you and common sense go separate ways. Nothing new there. It's always that way with you. I made a couple of readily verifiable observations about Yankee Stadium and you dragged out your tired old script and reacted as if I were attacking the stadium. If you don't love the Yankees, you hate New York. What a self-serving lie, and so redolent with the arrogance of a Yankee fan. I don't hate all Yankee fans; I've gone to games with Yankee fans. But arrogant, duplicitous Yankee fans like you and lowlifes like those slimebags in the bleachers -- yeah, they're easy to detest. Anybody who'd defend scumwads who chant obscenities in the presence of small children is taking fanhood way too far.

"But, when the Yankees enter the discussion, you and common sense go separate ways."

Nope. Quit projecting your insanity and dysfunction onto me. I have enough to deal with as it is. Ichiro made a harmless comment about the crowd noise and intensity being much greater than it is in Seattle, and you started a thread ripping Ichiro a new one because he plays for the Yankees, and like many sports fans, you're so pitifully immature that you're actually allowing this to make you upset.

That's exactly what's happening, and it's a mixture of funny and sad to observe.

" If you don't love the Yankees, you hate New York. What a self-serving lie, and so redolent with the arrogance of a Yankee fan... arrogant, duplicitous Yankee fans like you and lowlifes like those slimebags in the bleachers -- yeah, they're easy to detest. Anybody who'd defend scumwads who chant obscenities in the presence of small children is taking fanhood way too far."

I'm speaking specifically to you. I don't believe you're necessarily representative of most people. You, specifically, are an annoying, immature, condescending, borderline-insane toolbox.

You completely hate the Yankees and their fans with a passion so deep it's both scary and amusing. That's why you're whining about Ichiro like the little b**ch that you are: he wears the Pinstripes, so now all the great years he gave Seattle are out the window, and you're just going to sh*t all over him.

Your act is so old, man. Tell it to your shrink. I'm not getting paid to listen to your psychotic BS.

"You completely hate the Yankees and their fans with a passion so deep it's both scary and amusing."

Gee, you're a tenacious little pit bull, aren't you? Just can't let go of your stock phrase and blatant lie. I already explained to you, numerous times, that I don't hate all Yankee fans. In fact, I've had some very pleasant conversations about baseball with several Yankee fans since I moved back home to New York. We've discussed the Pineda deal, their feelings about losing Montero, and the arrival of Ichiro, among other things. Very nice people. I like nice Yankee fans. I just don't like you, because you're a jerk. Has nothing to do with the Yankees. If you were a fan of the Mudhens, you'd still be a jerk, and your history of conflict with other posters on this forum speaks for itself -- and, of course, it's always their fault, never yours.

"...he wears the Pinstripes, so now all the great years he gave Seattle are out the window, and you're just going to sh*t all over him."

Nice reversal there, champ. In fact, what this thread was about was Ichiro throwing all those great years of fan support back in our teeth for the sake of one lousy curtain call in the Bronx.

Instead of relying on your faulty and biased impressions -- as the popular New York sportscaster Warner Wolf used to say -- let's go to the videotape:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=3731666

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=23474001&topic_id=8877494&c_id=nyy

"I don't know if it was because it was my first home run as a Yankee or because it was my 100th home run, but I don't think I have ever received that kind of ovation from the fans -- that many and that loud," Ichiro said. "Maybe it was the first time in my career I received something that big."

Yeah, that home run in the Bronx definitely inspired a bigger response than any we ever gave him at Safeco. No wonder he doesn't remember any bigger reactions in Seattle anymore.

And you've often promised to put me on Ignore. When are you ever going to keep your word?

To be brutally honest, if I move out of the Pacific Northwest, I really don't think I would have that much interest in the Mariners.

"Gee, you're a tenacious little pit bull, aren't you? Just can't let go of your stock phrase and blatant lie."

Nope. You're just an a-hole. F*** this, and f*** you.

I'm out.

Yay!

I'm still hanging with them. It's not just the team; it's the associations I have with the State of Washington, which I truly love. If I weren't in New York, that's where I'd wanna be. I've lived all over this country, and no other state I've lived in tops Washington. It's such a beautiful place. Besides, I think the M's will eventually give us something to cheer about. Maybe new owners, for one thing.

The State of Washington has is awesome in many ways. Professional sports, in particular baseball, is not one of them. I think sometimes the Mariners are a scab on the @$$ of Seattle.

Well, the M's have never won the big one. They're underdogs, and I tend to favor underdogs. Mets instead of Yankees, always -- and that's why. A long time ago, a comedian named Joe E. Lewis said: "Rooting for the New York Yankees is like rooting for U.S. Steel." In those days, America still had a prospering steel industry and U.S. Steel was an industrial giant.

There's something more satisfying in a long-shot victory. I think that's why it's one of the abiding motifs in drama. The poor schlub from the blue-collar family gets the girl that the rich, preppy snob covets but doesn't love. The runner whose feet are horribly burned goes on to win footraces in the Olympics (that one really happened). Washed-up palooka Terry Malloy defeats Johnny Friendly and the waterfront mob. The seven samurai hold off a host of invaders. David fells Goliath.

I can't imagine that the fourth World Championship in five years won by the Yankees could have been as satisfying to a Yankee fan as the first World Championship in Seattle will be for Mariners fans. It'll be a long grind; it already has been. But the payoff will be blissful. It's gotta be.

I don't condone violence in general. But when the meek little kid on the playground who's been the longtime victim of the schoolyard bully hauls off and decks the big coward who's been abusing him, there's something so deeply satisfying in that, something so right, that it seems to redeem the world for a brief moment from the pall of oppression and injustice that hangs over life like a dirty shroud too much of the time. I guess, as Jimmy Breslin observed, most of us are losers. And when another loser wins, we can take a vicarious victory from that, even if it's not quite enough to inspire us to hope in our own chances. Does that make sense? Maybe not. But when Kerri Strug nailed the landing on her gold medal vault in the 1996 Olympics, when she could barely walk on her injured ankle and collapsed after saluting the judges, that still ranks in my heart as one of the greatest sports moments I've ever witnessed. Beating the odds -- there's just something about it.

I've taken that angle as well. I imagine the day (say 2026) that Safeco is filled with people waving hankys and it's the sixth game of the World Series. The Mariners are up in the Series 3 games to 2. It's the bottom of 9th inning, they are ahead by two runs, there are two outs, and a runner on first. We have some Dominican born flamethrower on the bound who is even in the count 2-2. Here's the pitch. It's a high popup inside the infield, the shortstop gets underneath and sees it into his glove, the place explodes, players pile on to one another. The Mariners are the 2026 World Series champions. Seattle is in a frenzy for weeks, big parades, celebrations. We open up the 2027 year by having a ring ceremony and unfurling a banner saying "2026 World Champions" Yes, 2026 was a year never to forget.
Fast forward 15 years to 2041. The Mariners have made one playoff appearance since their World Championship. They are about ready to finish 5th in the division for the 3rd consecutive year. Occasionally, you see a fan with a worn and faded 2026 World Champions shirt or the jersey of a player from that team. At least three times a game between innings, they replay part of that championship season. And the guy sitting next to you will converse about how great that season was and how you will probably never see the Mariners win another title in your lifetime.
There are simply too many baseball seasons to endure year in and year out, just to hope for that one magical year. And, eventually, the shine will wear off of that season as well. I wonder what 1985 really means to Kansas City Royals fans. Probably not much to anybody under 40 and the younger fans probably here the stories of Saberhagen, George Brett, Willie Wilson, etc. and hope that on year they will see the same thing in their lifetime.
I think being a fan of a team is about having pride and tradition much more than just hoping for that one magical season. I really don't think the type of scenario I am describing is all that appealing, but it's probably a best case scenario if you are a Mariners fan.