He'll be in the Mariners Hall of Fame. And for me that is much more important.

It's a little sad that Jamie's strongest bid for inclusion in the Hall hinges on his securing 300 wins -- a team-dependent stat. To my mind, besting a number of HOF pitchers in K/BB over a 24-year career is more impressive and more indicative of his pitching skills.

K/BB is one narrow stat. A career ERA of around 4.24 to this point (compare to Felix at 3.24). BAA of 0.267 (compare to Felix 0.244). OPS Allowed 0.715 (compare to Felix 0.664).

Thanks for posting those alternate stats, every one of which is team-dependent.

; )

I'm with you. K/BB is pretty indicative of a pitchers skill in general. K rate, BB rate, and HR rate are the three main components of the more advanced pitching stats.

Of all those stats it's HR/9 where he lags. As you'd expect of a guy with so little velocity, his mistakes go a long way. But in the others, he bests a number of HOF pitchers. His BB/9, e.g., beats Tom Seaver, Rollie Fingers, Lefty Grove, Whitey Ford, and Bob Gibson, among others.

Flyball pitchers will always have a disadvantage in the HR department simply because groundballs can never be home runs. That's why guys like Halladay that get good strikeout rates, good walk rates, AND keep the ball on the ground are truly dominate. The ways another team can hurt them are diminished to the utmost degree.

ERA, BAA and OBP are team dependent? HA HA HA HA. Yeah, all those stats, are the team's fault. Too bad Jamie's teammates all shucked.

A pitcher's job is not to strike guys out. It's to get guys out without runs scoring.

Apparently in your mind, ground and fly outs are universally inferior to strike outs. Got it.

I don't know why you're mocking a statistical reality. All of those statistics involve the fielders -- therefore, they're referred to, correctly, as team-dependent stats.

If you insist on stats that involve the pitcher's team members, then go check out where Moyer ranks in WPCT. Better than quite a few HOF pitchers, including Waite Hoyt, Don Sutton, Don Drysdale, Early Wynn, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry, etc., etc.

"It's a little sad that Jamie's strongest bid for inclusion in the Hall hinges on his securing 300 wins -- a team-dependent stat."

I simply don't believe any pitcher can luck his way into 300 wins. You have to AVERAGE TWENTY WINS FOR FIFTEEN YEARS to get to 300.

Do you know how many Yankees' pitchers have gotten to 300 wins? ZERO. Whitey Ford is first with 236 wins.

It's hard for ANYBODY to get to 300 wins. Sure, it helps to have a good offense, a good defense behind you, a solid team, in general. But you have to perform year after year after year to reach 300. It's a real feat of endurance.

Most pitchers are out of the game by the age of thirty-six because they can't get major league hitters out anymore. Yet, here's Jamie Moyer who turned 49-years-old last November, and he's still getting major league hitters out.

There's something pretty special about that. I know that doesn't make him Koufax or Pedro Martinez in 1999-2000, but it's great that the game still has room for people like Jamie Moyer.

EDIT: Baseball Reference has this interesting feature where they tell you what a pitcher's estimated W-L record would have been playing for teams with league-average offense. According to B-R, Moyer would be 204-228 had he pitched for teams with average offense. (Andy Pettitte, whose career record is 240-138, would be 168-154 pitching for teams with league-average offense.)

Jamie Moyer pitched for great offensive teams from 1996-2003, and again from 2007-2010. Had he not gotten injured in 2009, and had he not missed the last month of the 2000 season, it's quite possible that Moyer would be at ~285 wins, which would put him in striking distance for 3000 in 2012.

Too bad...

"ERA, BAA and OBP are team dependent?"

They can be. Look, I know that a lot of you guys are tired of the Yankee examples. The only reason I bring it up is that eight years ago, the Yankees' outfield defense was abysmal. Bernie Williams was a wreck in center. Gary Sheffield was no great shakes in right. Hideki Matsui was well below-average in left.

You've got Curtis Granderson, Brett Gardner, and Nick Swisher out there now, and the difference is night and day. There are so many balls that were falling for singles and doubles a few years ago that are now outs, oftentimes easy outs. There are fewer runners taking extra bases on the basepaths on the noodle arms of Bernie Williams and Johnny Damon.

The quality of the team around you does impact how many hits and runs you give-up. It's hard to say exactly how much of a difference, but all major league defenses are not the same. Therefore, I do believe things like a pitcher's strikeout rate are relevant. The more a pitcher can keep the other team from putting the bat on the ball, the less is left to chance.

You don't have to sell me on Jamie. I think he's phenomenal.

There's an old Zen story about a master swordsman who dispatches a bunch of armed opponents in a boat with a broken oar. Being able to win with a lesser weapon is a sign of mastery, and Jamie -- with his 80 MPH fastball -- is a master.

> ERA, BAA and OBP are team dependent?

ERA sure as heck is. So is BAA. Dunno what OBP has to do with anything?

> Apparently in your mind, ground and fly outs are universally inferior to strike outs. Got it

Never said that. I said groundballs are better than flyballs. Derp.

Ackley!

1-0 Mariners!

Last year, Felix had an ERA of 3.47, and Vargas had an ERA of 4.25. Guess the team just decided to play more poorly in the field when Vargas was on the mound.

derp.

"Last year, Felix had an ERA of 3.47, and Vargas had an ERA of 4.25. Guess the team just decided to play more poorly in the field when Vargas was on the mound."

Let's compare Felix Hernandez' 2011 numbers with those of Jason Vargas, minus ERA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Felix: 33 GS, 233.67 IP, 7.1 IP/GS, 218 H, 19 HR, 67 BB, 222 K, 50.2% GB

Vargas: 32 GS, 201 IP, 6.3 IP/GS, 205 H, 22 HR, 59 BB, 131 K, 36.4% GB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't even need to look at the ERA to understand that Felix Hernandez was a substantially better pitcher than Jason Vargas in 2011. Felix Hernandez pitched more innings, lasting nearly an inning longer per start. He allowed hits at a fewer rate. He allowed HR's at a fewer rate. He kept the ball on the ground. Groundballs are mostly singles, whereas flyballs always have the potential to be extra-base hits. He struck-out batters at a much higher rate, and walked batters at a lower rate.

Based on the "peripheral" numbers as they're called, it stands to reason that Felix Hernandez' ERA would be significantly lower than that of Jason Vargas.

> Guess the team just decided to play more poorly in the field when Vargas was on the mound.

I wish for once you'd think about things in depth.

Think of the types of balls Felix and Vargas generate. Felix is a groundball-dominant pitcher. Vargas is an extreme flyball pitcher.

Which section of our defense was above average last year? Our outfielders or our infielders?

Anyways, you lose any argument when ERA is your big comparison stat. That's just gross, dude.