"Its only a matter of time until this stuff becomes considered "normal" and the people that choose to live in the 1890's can stomp their feet all they want, but it doesn't make them right. THAT is arrogant. Fangraphs? Never seen those writers be arrogant at all."
I think you're right that I'm probably projecting the attitude of posters at Fangraphs, or conflating Fangraphs with Lookout Landing, which can be snarky, at times, anyway.
I guess I used to find Dave Cameron a little condescending, but like many of us, Cameron has gotten better over the years. I read some stuff he wrote in 2005 or 2006, and didn't agree with some stuff he had to say.
But guess what? I don't agree with a lot of stuff I had to say in 2005 or 2006. There's not one year, seemingly one baseball game, that goes by where I don't learn a little something new.
Fangraphs was a good site when it started, and only seems to have gotten better. Like I said before, if you're looking for up-to-the-minute conventional stats, just visit ESPN or mlb.com or something. But when it comes to the latest in stat analysis, Fangraphs is about as good as it gets, at least as far as free sites are concerned.
Sounds like the psychological profile of a couple of this board's regulars.
QUOTE - They're not interested in the conventional fan who's trying to become educated in the newest metrics ..... If you're not already in the clique, you don't belong, so don't try to belong. If everybody becomes knowledgeable, what happens to the fun of knowing more than everybody else? - UNQUOTE
You started out fine there, and ended up in pretentious a-hole land.
Yes, Fangraphs is geared more towards people who are already into advanced metrics. No, it is not some exclusive club where anybody who isn't into that can't come in and play. And, no, they aren't educators, but analysts and evaluators.
I started out somewhere other than Fangraphs learning about advanced stat analysis. And it's not like the people who write for Fangraphs or comment in the forums / threads wont help you find what you need. There are a few bad apples over there who have little patience for ignorance, but don't dismiss the entire website or it's denizens just because you haven't tried every avenue available to you.
For what it's worth, baseball-reference also does not do live updates of its main stats database because I suspect updating the entirety of the rather large database on a play-by-play frequency is quite processor intensive and would require performance problems or astronomical hosting fees. For this reason, both BR and Fangraphs likely update their main database during periods of low traffic (late night/early morning).
In fact, places like ESPN and MLB.com update their basic current season stat pages and leaderboards live, but when you look at things like splits and individual player's full historical stat page they also do not update those stats live.
In my experience, there is no one "go-to" stat place that has everything, and instead I have several different places I frequent for retrieving stats and doing analysis. Each site has pros and cons, and you have to just select the best site for your current purpose. You also need to be aware of each sites quirks and pitfalls (ie, updating schedule, and which parts of the site are updated). Fangraphs actually has implemented a live updating system for current season stats, but that box disappears I think while they are updating the main database, so it likely wasn't there when you looked at the site.
While I use and enjoy fangraphs for many things, I also recognize it has many weaknesses. One of the big ones as you have mentioned is problems with usability interface. In this regard, baseball-reference has been making some strides and they do now offer quite a bit more in advanced metrics than they used to (although many of their calculations are derived differently than Fangraphs). They also have mouse-over hover explanations for all their stat abbreviations, which I agree is very useful.
Sorry, but I find intellectual snobbism obnoxious, no matter where I encounter it, and it's rampant among the "regulars" on sites like Fangraphs, USS Mariner, and Lookout Landing. Let some unwitting neophyte wander into one of the discussions there and state something "old school," and the guardians of cutting-edge superiority will pounce on the poor schnook and rip him apart with "witty" putdowns. Nobody among their peers calls them out and says, "Hey, take it easy; the guy is new here and we all were once." To the contrary, there's usually a contest to see who can be the most mean-spirited d*ck. In sum, there's a stench of cliquishness thereabouts that's a turnoff to me and there always has been whenever I've gone to those sites.
I didn't start this thread to comment on that, because I dismissed those jerks long ago and they're irrelevant to me. A-holes will be a-holes, and the world's full of them. My sole purpose in starting this thread was to alert people who use Fangraphs stats that they might be trying to support their arguments with outdated stats in discussions elsewhere. When the discussion is about baseball statistics, one wants to be accurate. It truly was nothing more than a heads-up for the benefit of others. But, since the discussion has now ranged into the attitude of superciliousness characteristic of sites like Fangraphs, I don't mind telling you they could use an advanced course in the Old School subjects of cordiality and humility on sites where the SABRites hold court. If you don't find their style of overbearing aggression problematic, well, you haven't been altogether shy about taking that approach yourself on occasion, have you?
"If you don't find their style of overbearing aggression problematic, well, you haven't been altogether shy about taking that approach yourself on occasion, have you?"
Nor would I deny it, as that would make me a liar. But I am I. I am not the other crowd nor are they me.
I will offer this, though, after what is now years of havng to answer the same challenges to advanced analysis, the prickliness of the SABR people has probably gotten a lot more obvious. No, we haven't always been nice guys, but these days it seems like even the nice guys amongst us are vetting the old schoolers without much care. And, let's not split hairs here, we still get a lot of s*** from the old schoolers and traditionalists who think our newfangled approach is not only "nerd talk" but an affront to all they stand for. So don't pretend that SABR people haven't had just cause in treating a seeming newcomer like dirt. For every newcomer we've seen who is just ignorant, there are ten more like RKA who are just looking to start a flame war.
It is sad that the honest newcomers get caught in this crossfire, but it is what it is.
"So don't pretend that SABR people haven't had just cause in treating a seeming newcomer like dirt."
No pretense involved -- they don't have just cause.
It takes little comprehension to distinguish an innocent comment by a non-combative neophyte from a red flag being waved by a belligerent statistical Luddite looking for a fight.
Many times I've seen innocent newbies treated like idiots by the smug jerks on the aforementioned sites.
I'll tell you who strikes me as a refreshing exception in that regard: Jeff Sullivan. I've never seen him trash a newcomer for having the temerity to post something contrary to the Gospel According to SABR. He has a great sense of humor that doesn't come across as mean-spirited. He also evinces a refreshing sense of humility. He doesn't seem to think he knows all there is to know and he doesn't act like he does.
His sidekick, on the other hand, the guy who calls himself Matthew, is an abrasive, arrogant, condescending d!ck; and then there's the usual gang of intellectual bullies who come charging in when they smell blood in the water. Really, there's no excuse for what they do. If your best alibi is that some Old School fundamentalists have behaved like rude knuckleheads, that's a pretty weak defense. What does that amount to? They behave badly so we will too.
Gee, that's progressive -- just what you'd expect from people who really are intellectually superior.
I'm not defending the behavior, if that's what you think I'm doing. I rarely defend my own. What I am asking is that you understand that these people react this way not without provocation, which has, unfortunately, only gotten worse over the years. So it's not like they sit around salivating at the chance at slaughtering the next newbie that comes around. Let's also not ignore that over the last 10 years or so, the behavior of people on the internet has soured to the point where you can get this kind of treatment anywhere you go. It's not even about SABR people and non SABR people, but about anybody who has a different opinion than yours. Between the trolling, the offensive and inflammatory commentary, and the feeling of internet anonymity basically allowing you to be a jerk with impunity, he web has become the last place I really want to have a meaningful conversation. I'm serious. Go try a few political sites sometime and see what happens if you have opposing views to the majority denizens.
Would it be more progressive if everybody got along? Yeah, it would. But it isn't happening. The culture of the internet has evolved to such a point where regular human interaction and civility is dead. It is what it is. The only thing we can do is lead by example. Even on places like 4chan, if you act serious enough and know what you're talking about, you can get an actual decent conversation going. Wont stop the random anonymous a-hole from still trying to yank your chain, but you have to know how to handle those kinds of people...