I'm working on a Blog project to create All-Time teams. (With both Pre- and Post- 1950, for the original 16.) I've just complete the All-Time Tigers, 1950-2009. I'm a Red Sox fan living in Michigan and root for the Tigers too, but I'd be intereted to know what some REAL fans think of my picks!

Please come by and ckeck it out! It's on: all-time-teams.blogspot.com

Let me know what you think!

Thanks!

I don't like it.

You left out the Tiger's BEST outfielder since Kaline... Magglio Fricking Ordonez!

Here is a comparison of the guys you have on there:

BA RBI HR

Kemp-----.284 422 89
Lemon----.263 536 142
Stanley---.248 500 117
Gibson----.273 688 195
Wertz-----.286 531 109
Northrup--.265 623 159
Higginson-.272 709 187

None of those guys even come close to...

Ordonez---.312 1145 277

...except for Kaline at .297 1583 399

And, for those of you that think OPS is the God of all hitting stats, Ordonez beats Kaline .884 to .855

4friends, you need to add Magglio Fricking Ordonez, and please hurry :>)

the rest of those guys were not suspected of being on the juice.

I do value OPS, but Kaline's career was centered in the worst offensive period in baseball history, Magglio's in one of the best. In the context of their own eras, Kaline was a much greater player than Ordonez.

Kaline also had well over 11,000 plate appearances, while Magglio has had less than 7000. Let's recheck Maggs' numbers after he has another 4500 PAs on his resume.

That's an amateur listing 4friends!! You missed 4 dynamite Tigers players of the past -- plus 2-3 others that could easily been included.

Your player selection grade is somewhere between B-/C+

"Ordonez---.312 1145 277

...except for Kaline at .297 1583 399

And, for those of you that think OPS is the God of all hitting stats, Ordonez beats Kaline .884 to .855"

Since this is an all-time Tiger roster, it's only fair to use Magglio's numbers as a Tiger only.

.307/.364/.525, 90 HR, 442 RBI.

Plus, he only has been a Tiger for 5 (going on 6) years. That's like putting Darrell Evans on an all-time Tiger team when clearly he belongs on either the Braves or Giants. That's why I would never put Mickey Cochrane on an all-time Tigers team.

If Maggs ends up playing more years in Detroit than in Chicago, then he might warrant a spot. Right now, I think it's a little premature.

Thanks for all the replies and feedback.

A few things: First off - yes, you can only consider what someone did for the Tigers. And second - there's a five year MINIMUM. (So Mickey Cochrane can't even be considered when I do the All-Classic (1901-1949) Tigers, next.

As for Mags...

If you want to know what stat I think is the best, it's not OPS, it's *OPS+. That's (approximately) a player's OPS compared to the league averge, adjusted for park value. (100 is average, 110 is 10% over avaerage, etc...) Given ONLY his time on the Tigers, Mags' 5 years so far is a 128 - 28% over league Average. That's very good, of course. But he's coming off a bad year, and he's really only had one GREAT year. Combine that with the fact that he has medicore range in the field, at best, and that he hit .105 in the 2006 World Series (and was mediocre in the LDS and LCS as well) and you just don't have a very convincing case. ESPECIALLY if his decline continues over the next year or two. Now, if he finds his 2007 bat again... I'll definitiely recosider.

BTW... the other Outfielders have *OPS+ of:
134 - Kaline
127 - Horton
125 - Gibson
125 - Wertz
125 - Kemp
117 - Lemon
113 - Higginson
112 - Northrup
90 - Stanley

So he'd be in Horton's class, assuming he doesn't decline any further for the next year or two. Frankly, the stats don't support his being significanlty better than anyone from Kemp on UP, and you'd be foolish ot ignore the DEFENSIVE strength that Lemon and Stanley bring or for that matter the DEPTH that having Northrup adds. I could swap [Mags] for Higginson, but like I said: Give me another good year, instead of more year's like this last one first. (Yeah: I'm prejudiced against active players.)

As for any other "dynamite players" I missed? WHO? Please let me know! Granderson will probably take Higgy's spot. That's a better fit than Mags anyway. And I'd do that probably next year. I want one more complete, decent year first.

Polanco instead of Easley I could see - but it's not as clear cut as you might think.
*OPS+:
Polanco: 103
Easley: 101

Both were barley above league average. NOW you COULD SAY that Polance was AS GOOD a hitter, but a BETTER defender... and I could buy that. Or you could say that Polanco has the advatage of Average and Defense while Easley has the advantage in Speed and Power. PLUS, as far as the *OPS+ goes - Easley stuck around long enough to have some decline. Polanco, so far, has not. So you're comapring only one guy's best years, to another guy's best years with some declining years mixed in. Polanco has two years over 120 (127, half a year in '05 and 122 in '07) While Easley topped out at 117. But Easley has THREE years over 110 (to Polanco's two) and just ONE UNDER 90, where Polanco has TWO. So like I said: It's closer than it looks. (But I could be sold on Polanco.)

As for anyone else? Let me know who you'd want AND who you'd switch them for. Each team must have three players at every IF position, and nine overall Outfielders, with at least ONE at every position. So if you do think I missed anyone esle, please let me know who'd you'd swap!

(Don't like the Darrell Evans pick? Give me a better qualifying first baseman! Tony Clark? (*shudder*). Well... MAYBE.)

But THANKS again! I love these kinds of debates!

One more thing... I will eventually do every team. And there's no rule that says a player can't be on mutiple teams. So in addition to being my pick for one of the 1st Baseman on Modern-Detroit, he will also likely be one of the THIRD Basemen for San Francisco. As for Milwaukee/Atlanta's Thrid basemen...

Ed Mathews is the obvious first pick and Chipper Jones the obvious second. (Or switch them, whatever.) The only other serious contender at 3B I see is BOB HORNER. (Pendleton doesn't qualify - only 4 years.) Now I haven't done the side by side yet, but my initial impression is that the last 3B for Milwaukee/Atlanta will be Horner. But we'll see.

So Evans can still be (and will likley be) on both the Giants and the Tigers. (The only rule I have about multiple teams is that a player can't be on both the Modern and the Classic team within the same franchise.

damus777*:
That's an amateur listing 4friends!! You missed 4 dynamite Tigers players of the past -- plus 2-3 others that could easily been included.

You DO realize that it's limited to a 40-man roster, with 3 at every IF position, 9 OF's and 16 Pitchers, right?

If you want to include anyone else, you have to bump someone at the same position.

So, keeping that in mind, please let me know what changes you'd make.

Your list does not include any Tigers player prior to Vic Wertz's career time-line.

That is why you are an amateur at this task..... approximate A-Ball/high school level research level.

Please accept my apology for being blunt and telling you the truth.

I am done on this thread. Take care 4friends.

you mean, you apologize for being a self righeous a**?

Damus777

Sorry to be rude, I do apprecaite any feedback really, and I LOVE you avater BTW, but why don't you RTFM next time before you go baselessly insulting someone? (I take the 'ameteur' crack rather personally - I've forgotten more about baseball history than most people will ever know. Try me out sometime, if you don't believe me.) ;)

This team is my All-Time Tigers, 1950-2009. There's ANOTHER TIGERS TEAM COMING for 1901-1949. I've just finished the selections and gathering the stats together for them. I'll start putting the cards up this weekend, and probably get all of them up by sometime next week.

Did you really think I'd forgotten Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Manush, Newhouser, and company?! If you think I only missed "about 5" or so, you forgot about WAY more than you even think I did! (Hint: There's another FORTY.)

NOW... If you have any feedback that's releavant to a POST-1950 roster, I'd still love to hear it!

Thanks.

Do not dare defy the Damus! Just because this is your thread, and you decided to limit the list to Tiger players from 1950 to the present and said so clearly at the beginning, is no excuse for displeasing the Damus, much less trying his patience with lame explanations. Change your criteria, change your list, and bow down and beg the Damus for the forgiveness that you do not deserve. And don't let this happen again!

LOL Dammit! You owe me a new keyboard! LOL (And a cup of coffee!) LOL

<<<I do value OPS, but Kaline's career was centered in the worst offensive period in baseball history, Magglio's in one of the best. In the context of their own eras, Kaline was a much greater player than Ordonez.>>>

The fact that you have to make excuses to put Kaline over Maggs proves my point. Ordonez belongs in the conversation of great players.

I'm tired of posters ripping on our team when they are clearly great players.

How can you defend that?

How can I defend my position? With facts and reasoned analysis based upon them, as I just did.

And if you really think that "excuses" are necessary to rank Kaline as a greater player than Ordonez, you're even less worth debating than I thought you were.

Maggs over Kaline.........wow.

<<The fact that you have to make excuses to put Kaline over Maggs proves my point. >>

Dude, that's ABSURD. There are no EXCUSES here, only STATISTICS.

Offensive number are inflated today. That's a FACT. The, DH, Smaller Srtike Zone, Lower Mound, Shorter Fenses, Steroids, too many Pitchers (too many that don't belong in the majors!) all skew EVERYONE'S numbers upward. That's why you can't compare stats from different Era's strait up. Mags would not have put up the same numbers in the 1960's and Kaline's numbers (along with everyone else's from the 1960's) would have been much better today. The only remotely accurate way to compare two players from different era's (and it's still not perfect, just a LOT better) is to look at their stats IN CONTEXT. That's why OPS+ is better than OPS. It compares the player's OPS to the league average.

Kaline's career OPS+ was 134 and his best was 176.
Mags's OPS+ with the Tigers is 128 and his best was 167.

So they're CLOSE (IF you think 5 years worth of stats has the same value as 22) but Kaline still is the better hitter in terms of both Career AND Peak value.

PLUS he had ten Golden Gloves compare to Ordonez's two Cement Shoes.

PLUS he hit .379 with 2 homers and 8 RBI in the '68 series, while Mags hit .105 with just 2 singles and 0 RBI in the '06 Series.

Dude: There's just no comparison. And if you think that saying someone being worse that Al Kaline (or the '68 Tigers) is somehow "dumping on them," then you just have no appreciation at all for how good Kaline (or the '68 team) really was, or how the game has changed over the years, and how the numbers have been affected by these changes.

I'm sure that if Magglio plays the nine more seasons and gets the 4500 plate appearances he needs for his career to be the size of Kaline's, he'll still be right up there.

It's certainly possible, but let's not give him credit for it until he actually does, no?

I understand that your a fan, but in all seriousness...

1) He's 35 years old. He may not have FIVE seasons left in him, and at NINE he be breaking AGE records.

2) He's past him prime and coming off the worst season in his career. So he's in his decline phase. He may come back a little, but I don't think there's a 30 HR season in his future, nor do I see 20+ HR's coming with any consistency.

I DO like the guy, and I AM a Tigers fan, but the upside of Magglio right now is pretty small. I hate to say it, but I think it's far more likely that by the end of 2011, after having paid him 18-Mil for each of '10 and '11, most fans will be happy to see him go. For 18-Mil you can get a BETTER hitter than Mags is likely to be next year & beyond and a MUCH better fielder. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm usually not when I hope I am. ;)

And hey: I'm foremost a RED SOX fan and I'm saying the same thing about Big Papi DAVID ORTIZ over on those boards. Growing old stinks and despite the longer careers these days, baseball is STILL a young man's game.