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    • Why not play Flores at 2B and put Murphy back in OF?????????
Message 548190.1 was deleted
  • 2/9/13
  • DFAB
you do realize that Murphy was TERRIBLE in the OF right? Just ask Santana...
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  • 2/9/13
  • metthunder
Murphy is bad in OF, worse than Duda, can't judge ball... won't be the last to say this.
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Messages 548190.4 through 548190.6 were deleted
  • 2/9/13
  • 86kid

The Mets have been there and done that with Murphy. They aren't putting him back in the OF.

The solution here is to, next winter, either trade Murphy and then hope Flores isn't bad at 2nd, or hope that Flores is a natural in the OF and can compensate his lack of footspeed out there, or just trade Flore for an OF prospect of equal ceiling.

I'd prefer we trade Murphy and keep the younger and cheaper Flores.


Edited 2/9/13   by  86kid
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  • 2/9/13
  • stearnsy12
because Murphy would have to re-learn leftfield at the ML level while Flores could do it out of the glare at AAA...Murphy is just getting more comfortable at second and to uproot him yet again would be a mistake
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  • 2/9/13
  • DFAB
I'd rather Flores keeps increasing his value so we can trade him for a REAL OFer....
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Message 548190.10 was deleted
  • 2/9/13
  • DFAB
Flores has NO POSITION. Also, who said we would trade him for "junk?" Would you trade him for Trumbo? I know I would...
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  • 2/9/13
  • metthunder
Bourn would have to be like Kelly Leek CF for Bad News Bears if Murphy was in LF
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  • 2/9/13
  • thebobymon

Oh my.

Do you not have a limit switch?

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  • 2/9/13
  • Gepett0

truthfully, as bad as he was....i still dont think he was worse than duda...and we only really had him out there for 27 games in 2009 and, truthfully, he looked ok in the 30 games that he played there in 2008...and he had NEVER played an inning in the of his entire minor league career

honestly, if he actually played there for a while, he could have improved...but we were supposed to be a winning team in 2009 so we never would have had the patience we showed w/ duda who is probably a far worse of today (even w/ almost 400 games there) than murphy would be

not that i am saying this is a GOOD idea but i think the legend of how bad murphy was in the OF is in part due to 1) a single play that he botched horribly w/ santana going for a no hitter in one of his first starts of the year and 2) the fact that we were actually competing so every loss that was the result of a murphy mistake stung way more than a loss does today

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  • 2/9/13
  • metthunder
Murph's position is 3b and Duda is 1b, I would trade them to teams in need of these players and get back what Mets need. Get a real 2b and a starting Ofer. Surprised Sandy hasn't made attempts that the media leak.
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  • 2/9/13
  • Gepett0
they just werent getting back good offers for murphy and no one wants duda...the most if i remember correctly that they were being offered for murphy were middle relievers that could possibly evolve into set up men or bad closers
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  • 2/9/13
  • _BigNick
1. Murphy had problems in the OF, was clearly uncomfortable there
2. Flores isn't ready
3. Flores is worse at 2B than Murphy
4. You're moving a player who would be completely out of position in the OF for a player that's basically out of position everywhere
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  • 2/10/13
  • Gepett0

3. Flores is worse at 2B than Murphy

actually, that has never been stated by anybody...

flores has far better reactions, hands, arm, and glove

murphy has better footwork & range

no one has actually said "flores is worse than murphy" and i would challenge you to find one person that has

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  • 2/10/13
  • _BigNick
"As far as Flores versus Murphy defensively, I don’t think there’s any guarantee that the youngster will be better. There’s a small split in the defensive metric with respect to Murphy’s 2012 season: Total Zone Rating has him one run below average, BIS Defensive Runs Saved has him +1 and UZR has him nine runs below average. I really think Murphy is quicker than Flores. The Irish Hammer stole 14 bases in his last full minor league season in 2008 in 99 games. Flores has 14 stolen bases in 589 minor league games through his age 20/21 season. The nicest thing I heard about Flores’ work at second in 2012 was that he was still “learning” the position."

"Flores at second is more appealing than in leftfield, but I still think that it would be a stretch. He is, and will always be, a second baseman with below average range. Again, he’ll field the grounders he can reach, but he will not reach enough of them. He has good hands and a plus arm, but his feet are slow, too slow for short, and too slow to play an average second base."

http://metsminorleagueblog.com/analysis/the-wilmer-flores-defensive-questions/

"no one has actually said "flores is worse than murphy" and i would challenge you to find one person that has"
I am someone, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, there's a slight review of this exact discussion from Toby Hyde (posted above).

Not sure where you get those things and how you define each is better, seem more like assumptions, but BA had this to say on Flores in their hot sheet: " but not nearly enough range to profile at second." Toby Hyde agrees, "Flores just does not have the feet to have the range necessary to play second in the big leagues." So, you even admit Murphy has the better range. Using your own list, range is important, Murphy wins, Flores doesn't even qualify. We know Flores is slower (see Cooper's assessment: "He’s a 20 runner on the 20-80 scouting scale") and not light on his feet (heavy feet severely limit his range), so heck, so he's hurt even more there. On arm - we're discussing second base. If he wins the arms race, big deal, you only lose there since again, it's second base.

Some more:
Goldstein:
"Finally off of shortstop, Flores has split time between second base, where he just doesn’t have the athleticism to play"
(And Hyde's comment on Goldstein's: "I think Goldstein is on point regarding the idea of “Wilmer Flores, second baseman.” I still have not talked to a scout who thinks he will have the range to play there in the big leagues.")

And it goes on from there. What we have is a player that no one really believes can play second base, that has a good arm but can't do much else, so that leaves him at third, where he's still not good, and if he fails there then at first. The Mets are locked up at each, so if he moves up to Las Vegas, hits, and should do both of those, he's great trade bait - what he should be.

So by the non-belief in all evaluators in Flores' "talents" at second, and the belief that some think Murphy can survive there and get better (see has played there at the MLB level), I'm confident in saying Murphy > Flores's defensive value at second base.

Edited 2/10/13   by  _BigNick
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  • 2/10/13
  • stearnsy12

you bring up an excellent point and one that many forget about that entire debacle which was a reflection on the FO's incompetency

Murph was an infielder his entire career and i believe it was after Floyd and Sheffield were injured they played Murph for FOUR games in the outfield in the minors and brought him up to play left field...i do believe you're right in that if he stayed out there he might have gotten better and better,but the FO abandoned the idea early in '09 (right?) and moved on

that mistake is why i think moving Murph from second would also be a mistake. While no one will mistake him for Roberto Alomar i think he became more comfortable and more reliable as the season wore on and he certainly wasn't the disaster at second so many envisioned.

IF we have to move either to the outfield it should be Flores and we might actually try to get 100 games in the OF instead of 4 before making a decision on him....

in either circumstance i'd rather put him at second OR the outfield and let him play there all season rather than bounce him around

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