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    • Brown & Cowgill
  • To:All
  • 2/2/13
  • dmanning12

I really do not know much about these guys but maybe they a do a decent job for us.
Its obvious we have no other hope at this point of bringing in a game changer.

From what I read about Cowgill he is a gamer, decent speed & decent power.
Stole 30+ bases in the minors before. I can see him winning a starting spot. Maybe he would be our Ruggiano.

Brown hit 24 bombs and 33 doubles in AAA just last year.
That's real intriguing right there.

As for the up through the org options I would love to see DD play CF because apparently he is the best defender out of all our options.

Would hate to see him & Kirk in the same lineup though.
Bring in a decent lefty and its 2 automatic outs.

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  • 2/2/13
  • MetObserver
A platoon of Duda/Brown in left and one of Cowgill/Baxter in Right with Den Dekker in Center could work out to the team's advantage. Not prefect but better than last year I think.
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  • 2/2/13
  • thagreat1
I'd be content with that unless 1 of the 4 in the combinations really turn it up and earn a non platoon starting job. I can see that being Duda as he has something to prove. Expect a fast start at the least
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  • 2/2/13
  • metsheart
Why are so many people discounting the idea of OF platoons?
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  • 2/2/13
  • MetObserver
Duda does hit the same against left and right but both are in the .250 range. So if his right hand hitting platoon partner doesn't hit well against lefties maybe he would be a regular.
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  • 2/2/13
  • dmanning12
I really hate the idea of not having at least 1 outfielder play day in and day out
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  • 2/2/13
  • metsheart

See SI article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/joe_lemire/09/26/oakland-athletics-moneyball-platoon/index.html

"The new Moneyball: How the A's built a surprise contender"

"As has been noted many times before, Moneyball wasn't about the particular skill of on-base percentage so much as it was about exploiting market inefficiencies that undervalued some players.

With this thought in mind, SI.com has tried to reverse-engineer Oakland's success this season in an effort to shed light on where the Billy Beane-led front office has found value.

Platoon advantages

"As a result, the A's have had 3,840 plate appearances in which a righthanded batter faced a lefthanded pitcher or a lefty batter opposed a righty on the mound; that's the second-largest total of opposite-handed plate appearances in the majors behind only the Giants and accounts for 65 percent of Oakland's total PAs.

Oakland has benefited from these favorable matchups. Among lefthanded bats, Brandon Moss has 17 home runs and a .958 OPS in his 215 PAs against righthanders, Seth Smith has 12 home runs and an .823 OPS in his 349 PAs and George Kottaras -- who hit a game-winning homer Tuesday night -- has six HRs and an .803 OPS in 65 PAs. Conversely, Jonny Gomes has 10 HRs and a .938 OPS in 184 PAs against southpaws, Chris Carter has five HRs and a .921 OPS in his 103 PAs and Collin Cowgill has one homer and an .844 OPS in 51 PAs.

So while players would prefer to play every day, the A's have bought in, almost universally repeating a certain buzz-phrase.

"It's something most of us haven't done," Carter said, "but I think it's putting hitters in a position to succeed."

"Every team would love to have a set nine," shortstop-turned-second baseman Cliff Pennington said. "That's kind of the goal, but we've got a good thing going here playing matchups. Bob Melvin puts us in a position to succeed, and that's been working for us." "




Also see Hardball Time article:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-platoon-team1

"The all-platoon team"

"When it comes down to it, there are just more starting positions in the major leagues than there are players worthy of getting that many at-bats, and while no team has ever gone to the extreme I’m about to, the point remains that sometimes two flawed players, when their flaws complement each other properly, can come together to produce at an all-star level"





Alderson is the initiator of "Moneyball" in MLB. Taught Beane (who was Alderson's Assistant GM in Oakland) the concepts of "Moneyball." Think Alderson's looking at platoons as a way to go in 2013.

Gil Hodges also used platoons to great effect in 1969. Had FOUR regular platoons. Other great managers of the past used them too. Casey Stengel was another famous one. Davey Johnson had Lenny & Mookie platoon too. Think platoons are a very good idea that's been proven successful.


Edited 2/2/13   by  metsheart
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  • 2/2/13
  • MetObserver
There would be no way we have enough bench outfielders to have all three positions as platoons. With 5 bench players 1 would be the backup catcher another 2 would have to be infield backups and this leave 2 extra players for the outfield. Resulting in only 2 outfield platoons.
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  • 2/2/13
  • Oldfan

How often are the A's contenders and how many championships has moneyball given them in the recent past?

The Mets are a large market team and shouldn't need to use moneyball tactics. It's horrible for most fans since the team has to trade most of their guys once they become good. It's always a transition team.

To each his own, but I find it hard to root for a team of guys on one-year deals.

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  • 2/2/13
  • metsheart

"There would be no way we have enough bench outfielders to have all three positions as platoons"





A's who won 94 gms in 2012 had FOUR regualr platoons:
Catcher
1B
2B
DH

As I'm sure you know DH can't be easily pinch hit for. If he is the pitcher has to come to bat the next time around the order (or another pinch hitter). And pinch hitting for your catcher's pretty risky too. But A's managed to pull off FOUR platoons successfully. "Short bench" didn't seem to hurt them at all.

Not only have A's used platoons successfully but so have Tampa Bay Rays. And Rays play in at least as tough a division as Mets. Rays went to playoffs 3 of the last 5 yrs. Won ALE division 2 of those 3 playoff yrs. Other 2 yrs Rays were over .500 in that very competitive division. In fact Tampa won 90 games this past season. With one of the lowest payrolls in MLB the whole time.


See SI article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/joe_lemire/09/26/oakland-athletics-moneyball-platoon/index.html

"The new Moneyball: How the A's built a surprise contender"


"Platoon advantages

It's something the Rays ($64 million payroll) have done effectively for a few years, but no team platoons like the A's ($55 million), who currently have four everyday time-shares at catcher, first base, second base and designated hitter.


"As a result, the A's have had 3,840 plate appearances in which a righthanded batter faced a lefthanded pitcher or a lefty batter opposed a righty on the mound; that's the second-largest total of opposite-handed plate appearances in the majors behind only the Giants and accounts for 65 percent of Oakland's total PAs.

Oakland has benefited from these favorable matchups. Among lefthanded bats, Brandon Moss has 17 home runs and a .958 OPS in his 215 PAs against righthanders, Seth Smith has 12 home runs and an .823 OPS in his 349 PAs and George Kottaras -- who hit a game-winning homer Tuesday night -- has six HRs and an .803 OPS in 65 PAs. Conversely, Jonny Gomes has 10 HRs and a .938 OPS in 184 PAs against southpaws, Chris Carter has five HRs and a .921 OPS in his 103 PAs and Collin Cowgill has one homer and an .844 OPS in 51 PAs."




Also see this Hardball Times article:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-platoon-team1

"The all-platoon team"


"When it comes down to it, there are just more starting positions in the major leagues than there are players worthy of getting that many at-bats, and while no team has ever gone to the extreme I’m about to, the point remains that sometimes two flawed players, when their flaws complement each other properly, can come together to produce at an all-star level."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think 2 OF platoons would be enough to increase offensive production significantly.

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  • 2/2/13
  • metsheart
See Tampa Bay Rays too for platoon use. 3 of last 5 yrs Rays made playoffs in 1 of the toughest divisions in baseball. 2 of those 3 playoff yrs Rays won that tough ALE division. Other 2 yrs they missed playoffs Rays had record over .500 in that tough division. In fact Rays won 90 gms in 2012 even though they missed the playoffs.


Mets shouldn't use Moneyball tactics? Newsflash -- ALL MLB teams now use Moneyball methods to evaluate players (for example to make trades) & manage their team on the field!!!




Who said anything about 1 yr deals? I'm talking about using young players under team control for the next 3-4-5 yrs to platoon.

And Mets will have the advantage over Tampa & Oakland in that Mets WILL be able to retain their players once they're eligible for arbitration!

Edited 2/2/13   by  metsheart
Edited 2/2/13   by  metsheart
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  • 2/2/13
  • dmanning12
1 batter has to emerge and play almost everyday.
I see that being Duda and or Cowgill.
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  • 2/2/13
  • metsheart
"1 batter has to emerge and play almost everyday"


Why?



See Hardball Times piece:

The all-platoon team"

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-platoon-team1

"When it comes down to it, there are just more starting positions in the major leagues than there are players worthy of getting that many at-bats, and while no team has ever gone to the extreme I’m about to, the point remains that sometimes two flawed players, when their flaws complement each other properly, can come together to produce at an all-star level."

Edited 2/2/13   by  metsheart
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  • 2/2/13
  • srdiddy666
"To each his own, but I find it hard to root for a team of guys on one-year deals."
Hey, I think the Yankees have A-Rod for another 12 years or so. You could go root for them.
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  • 2/2/13
  • srdiddy666
Because it gives you a little bit of depth and wiggle room when the eventual injury bug hits. If your lefty platoon gets injured do you suddenly expect the other guy to do anything against righties? With your 4 platoons, you're placing a lot of weight on 8 part-time players to not only produce to the maximum of what they are capable, but also to stay healthy throughout the entire year. While I think the platoon is not the worst thing in the world, I also think that you do not want to depend on too many of them. Way too many parts to rely on for any consistancy, and none of these guys has any track record of major league success.
So while it isn't completely vital that one of the outfielders steps up, it would really add a lot of margin to the Mets already slim hopes of having a major league worthy outfield.
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  • 2/2/13
  • skorpio520
think cowgil would be better suited for center with kirk and duda in left and baxter and brown in right.
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  • 2/2/13
  • metsheart
Totally disagree.

With platoons you have MORE flexibility to replace an injured player!

Think about it -- if your LH platoon player gets hurt you still have your productive RH platoon player. You only have to find another PART TIME player to fill in from the left side! It's always gonna be a lot easier to find a guy that can hit well against opposite hand pitcher than to find a guy that hits well against both rightys & leftys. Bill James cites those stats about RH hitters doing better against LHP & LH hitters doing better against RHP. Odds are 1 full time replacement's gonna be a big step down from your regular guy that's hurt. But part time LH replacement's probably gonna be much closer to injured LH part time platoon guy in terms of production!

A's having FOUR platoons in 2012 & winning 94 gms is proof platoons can be EXTREMELY productive if put together correctly.

Mets would only have TWO platoons (maybe say CF & 1 corner OF). That's "depending" on FOUR players. Not 8. And if 1/2 of platoon gets hurt it's MUCH easier to replace him.

Edited 2/2/13   by  metsheart
Edited 2/2/13   by  metsheart
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  • 2/3/13
  • murphstates

Here's the problem, the A's didn't really have four platoons.

The first base platoon was the result of the failure of all the other players at first base, primarily Daric Barton who was supposed to be the starting first baseman. The Moss/Carter platoon began in at the end of June.

There was no second base platoon. Jemile Weeks was the starting second baseman until he was demoted in August after Stephen Drew was acquired. At that point Cliff Pennington was shifted to second.

The catching platoon resulted from Kurt Suzuki's poor offensive production and subsequent trade to the Nats. Suzuki was the everyday catcher until July and was traded at the beginning of August.

The only real platoon was DH where Seth Smith played 50 games and Jonny Gomes 52, but even at DH there were other players who accounted for the other 60 games.

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  • 2/3/13
  • metsheart
"The first base platoon was the result of the failure of all the other players at first base"
"The catching platoon resulted from Kurt Suzuki's poor offensive production"



Isn't that the reason for platooning players? Poor production?
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  • 2/3/13
  • murphstates

You're continually posting your endorsement of a platoon system as if the A's went into the season with a plan to platoon players at multiple positions. They did not, the platoons were borne out of need as a result of failure.

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