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    • Lol Mets getting a better haul for Dickey than Marlins...
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  • 12/15/12
  • 4545_ajd
Got for Reyes, Johnson, Buerhle and Bonafacio.
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  • 12/15/12
  • KB24NYM
marlins are a gutless id.iot organization, even bigger joke of an ownership group than we have (and that is saying something big)
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Messages 546476.3 through 546476.5 were deleted
  • 12/15/12
  • cjct

money is just as important as talent.

Bluejays had to take on huge money in that deal so the marlins didn't get great prospects.

Reyes and Buerhle have huge deals and Josh Johnson will require a huge deal to keep.

Mets are trading a cy young winner on a 5 million dollar contract who will probably sign a relatively cheap extension for what he's worth.

pretty simple if you ask me

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  • 12/15/12
  • 4545_ajd

"Bluejays had to take on huge money in that deal so the marlins didn't get great prospects"

And whose fault is that?

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  • 12/16/12
  • cjct

its the marlins fault for signing those guys to terrible contracts.

u risk that if they don't play well or if you overpay they will be harder to trade in in the future.

Guys on smaller/cheaper deals always result in better return.

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  • 12/16/12
  • djiboutirox
thats what happens when you hand a bunch of people 400 million dollars
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  • 12/16/12
  • golfbone

The Marlins should give the BJ's prospects for taking those contracts off their hands. They overpaid and now are dumping salary.

Dickey will be the biggest upgrade for the BJ's this year. Without him they don't have a prayer. They only won 73 games last year. How many did the Marlins win with all those guys?

Dickey gave a terrible team 14 games over .500 ball. Without him the Mets would have been truly awful. He's a huge difference maker. He should have been pursued HARD by every team really making a push for WS next year.

The Mets on the other hand have no shot with or without him so they are smart to cash him in. Especially since it was easy come, easy go. They paid nothing for him in the first place. He was a gift.....manna from heaven.

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  • 12/16/12
  • leaffie
Do you have any idea why the Jays only won 73 games last year? You should check it out.
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  • 12/16/12
  • golfbone
Save me the trouble and tell me.
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  • 12/16/12
  • leaffie

They'lost three starters in one week, two of them with TJ. Then they lost their best RP also to TJ. They lost Bautista for months. Lind out for two months, Arencibia out for two months with broken hand, and then Lawrie for eight weeks when he fell over a railing. Rasmus was out about four weeks.

So they had no pitching, no offence and were playing with a AAA roster for more than half the year.

The additions from the Marlins are going to be surrounded by much better players before they even start.

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  • 12/16/12
  • golfbone

Assuming all their players will be healthy is dangerous.

I'm not a huge fan of what they got from the Marlins.

I think Dickey will help them more than anything else.

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  • 12/16/12
  • leaffie

We don't even hope for that. we just hope that this year is not as bad as last year.

I think everyone is going to be surprised how good this team is going to be even without RAD.

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  • 12/16/12
  • eastvisitr
Dickey is going to eat up innings for them. With Morrow coming off tommy john and Johnson always a risk that's big. The fact that he'll be pitching in a dome could make him even more effective. I know Jays fans might be upset having to give up quality prospects but with the Yanks and Sox vulnerable it seems like a good time to go for it. There's also the possibility that last year was a sustainable breakthrough for Dickey and in that case they have a frontline workhorse for the next three seasons.
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  • 12/16/12
  • key22

As a Jays fan I don't recall ever seeing a team hit with THAT many key injuries. Sure every team has injuries but when 2/5 of a rotation is gone for the year at the all-star break and a 3rd member is out for two months (and is the co/ace of the staff in Morrow) you're pretty much dead.

Santos was the expected closer with dominating stuff and didn't get out of the first month. It snowballs because then you're into the pen early and often and using AAA fodder. It also didn't help that Romero was pitching injured for most of the year and getting lit-up every start.

Then to add to the issues - the starting lefty specialist reliever in Lopez went down with TJ surgery it made the pen a disaster.

Add to that out of the starting 9, (Lawrie, Bautista, JPA,) all missed a few months it's actually quite remarkable to me that they won 73 games.

Reasonably Healthy (normal numbers of injuries to league average) the Jays are an 82-86 win team before any of these trades (see 2011).

The Jays had a gaping hole at 2B, LF and a good glove no bat Shortstop. Morrow and Romero were the number 1/2 guys at the top of the rotation.

Entering 2013 they finally have a LF - even with the peds if Melky posts something around his KC numbers which is the view then he fills the hole with positive side production and possibly better.

2B Bonifacio and Izturas are huge upgrades over Kelly Johnson and Vizquel (2B and bench). They improve the Jays dramatically on defense and on the bases (being switch hitters doesn't hurt).

Morrow and Romero drop from being 1/2 to arguably 4 and 5 in the rotation. Morrow is still a potential ace but Beurhle is more consistent because he can always take the ball. Either way Morrow was the ace and he's now number 3 at best.

The line-up had Lawrie and Rasmus as 1/2 in the order - they drop to somewhere in the 5 to 7 slots.

The turf argument is a weak one since this is good turf as turf goes and infield is less problematic. Roberto Alomar played very well on infield turf for a number of years and that turf was much worse than the current stuff. But he's a gamble - but you have to take the shot. Reyes when healthy is the best Short Stop in the AL East and probably the league. The order looks truly sick (if healthy)

Reyes (S) 40 steals potential big doubles and triples hitter(especially in the RC) and solid OBP.
Melky (S) Huge contact machine - avg, still good speed
Bautista (R) 40 homer potential, takes walks, big OPS bat
Encarnacion (R) 40 homer potential, takes walks, good OPS
Lawrie (R) solid numbers for a young player - still improving good speed
Rasmus (L) Solid power, good speed, needs to pick up OBP
Lind (L) coming back from injury looked to regain some of his former self -.296 average + solid pop
JPA (20-30 home run potential) not much of an average but most catchers have no average or power. Underrated by Jays fans.
Bonifacio (S) (2B) 30/33 steals - huge runner, solid defender with upside. He was a must in the Marlins trade and by some accounts possibly the best piece they got in the trade long term.

Izturas (S) as (2B/IF) is a quality guy - no pop, good speed.

The line-up has speed and power and some have both.

Santos is healthy and with Jansen and Delabar could be devastating trip of Right handed relievers. Delabar has truly nasty stuff. Batters were flailing at this guy and no one has ever heard of him.

On paper it looks good. But then on paper the Marlins looked good too - so you still have to play the game. But Alex Anthopolous can only do what he can do. And if you can get a guy like Dickey you have to try even if it hurts.

The Jays traded rookie Jeff Kent for David Cone for a WS run. The Jays won the WS and Cone left. They gave up a huge talent that had a great career for over a decade for a 5 month rental. But I'd rather win a WS with 5 months of Cone (and losing Kent) than finish 3rd or 4th 20 years but have a lot of great players like Carlos Delgado and Roy Halladay. As great as they were we never won anything.


Edited 12/16/12   by  key22
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  • 12/16/12
  • fargol

" Without him the Mets would have been truly awful."

Not sure there's much of a difference between awful and truly awful.

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  • 12/16/12
  • Oldfan

Exactly.

Its the first time in awhile I actually believe the Mets are headed in the right direction.

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  • 12/16/12
  • golfbone

There is a difference. It was fun to watch Dickey and I enjoyed the Mets winning when he pitched. Don't forget that this team played above it's head until about the middle of the season. Right about the time that Santana pitched his no hitter there was a lot to feel good about and it felt like we could be a sleeper and make a run. David Wright was sniffing at .400 and we were 7 games over .500. It was fun and that's a lot better than nothing.

Then the AS break came and the team tanked completely but Dickey still won. Every 5th day he made it interesting because he could pitch a no hitter any time he took the mound (or at least it felt that way). It was a lot of fun watching the frustration on opposing team's hitters as they swung through that fluttering orb coming at them looking as big as a basketball but playing cat and mouse with the bat (and the catcher's mitt).

That's the difference between awful and truly awful. 74-88 with him but without him they would not only have lost the 14 games over 500 from his starts, they would have lost a lot more games he didn't start because their bullpen would have been chewed up from substitute starters going 4-6 innings. I think they would have won at least 10 games less conservatively looking at it and probably more than thatand now you are looking at 64-98 or worse. 1962 stuff.

That's truly awful.


Edited 12/16/12   by  golfbone
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