We have a useless baseball player currently on the roster, his name is Torres. Not as good defensively as he was advertised, no pop in his bat. Not as fast on the basepaths as Pagan.

Pagan has 8 stole bases, which would lead the team. Pagan has 4 hrs, which would be 2nd on the team. He's hitting near 300.

I dont care how dumb Pagan may have been at times, but atleast we could count on him to hit. He would also be the best defensive outfielder on our team.

Sandy failed us on this one.

it doesnt look good right now but you have to see how the year plays out. i was never high on torres but i was pretty happy about getting ramirez. the season is way too young to determine who made out in that trade.

That's not how you judge trades, and even if you wanted to judge them that way it's way too early.

Torres was added to the trade to fill in the position. The trade was to get Ramirez who has been great in the BP for the giants. I still think Ramirez will get it together.

Pagan was pretty good offensively for us when he was here. The problem people had with him was his lapse in concentration and making dumb decisions.

I know it may be "early" but how many games have we lost due to Duda's bad defense out there. Or dumb errors by Kirk.

Yet the team still has a winning record.


Here's my post from another thread on this same subject:

Torres
Scored 13 runs in 22 games

Pagan
Scored 22 runs in 40 games

Torres
10 RBIs in 22 games

Pagan
13 RBIs in 40 games

Torres
.330 OBP

Pagan
.343 OBP

Looks to me that in spite of Torres being out with that calf injury, they're pretty close in OBP and Pagan has just 3 more RBIs than Torres, even though Pagan played in 18 more games. If you extrapolate Torres's runs scored in 22 games vs. Pagan's runs scored in 40 games, Torres actually wins out there too. The big difference is avg right now. Based on their career avgs, you'd have to believe that'll probably even out by the time the season ends.

Too early to call whether this was a good swap or not.

i understand Torres has been hurt and career wise they are similar players actually but Torres was signed after an awful 2011, while Pagan regressed only in his batting average in 2011 he still would give you 30 plus stolen bases (which this team severely lacks, is speed) and solid defense in the outfield. not to mention he's younger

Exactly. Pagan isn't all that good and the trade wasn't even for Torres. It was for ramirez. This organization wanted nothing to do with the lockerroom cancer that is Pagan.

Yeah, but you judge deals like this based on the times they were made and projections.
Coming in Torres' contract better suit the Mets, was projected better defensively, and was the better instinctive player, and additionally was willing to bat leadoff, something the Mets wanted.

Ramon Ramirez was a very solid piece in the trade and we really can't judge him on such a small sample based on what he has done in the past and his age.

Ultimately, I think the Mets will win the trade either way you look at it. In fairness to Kirk we probable wouldn't have seen him if Torres didn't get hurt and we know he can hit RHP and while he has over performed (but has messed up in the OF at times) he had still provided positive value. And can't really blame anyone for Duda's inabilities in the field but Duda.

Their OBP is similar in spite of the avgs being very different. And if you look at runs scored per game played, Torres acctually wins out on that. Torres is already 34 and Pagan is about to turn 31. Not a huge difference. Neither of these guys are in the Mets long term plans for when their top prospects will be ready to come up to the big leagues.

It's also been pointed out a number of times here and in that other thread, Ramirez was the main part of that trade. Torres was the throw-in.

At least wait til the end of the season on this one..Pagan is an ok player,make tons of mental errors which cost the Mets a few games last year..you can not evaluate a trade in 2 months..the end of the year?..sure..let's see where Pagan is then

Nah I am still not convinced

Based on their career averages Pagan will hit 30 points higher than Torres with a higher OBP. I don't consider Pagan a great loss and Ramirez was the focus of the deal, but Pagan is a better offensive player without a doubt.

>>> Based on their career averages Pagan will hit 30 points higher than Torres with a higher OBP <


Yes, that's correct. If you look at their 162 game avg for runs scored, Pagan's is 79 and Torres's is 78. I think Torres's decision making is better than Pagan's, and that could make the difference in a few ballgames.

As long as the team keeps winning, this is a non-issue though.

In most trades you have to wait before you can tell who got the better end, not in this one. None of the parties involved figure to be here long term anyway, so this looks like a short term trade, that's going straight towards the out house...

"Sandy failed us on this one."

Oh yeah, absolutely. If we still had Pagan in CF with his .270 or whatever average, we'd
be favorites for the WS!

I know I exaggerate, but seriously?

I guess since two months tells the whole story 100 percent of the time, then Albert Pujols is a huge bust signing.

Torres was tearing it up until he hit that homerun against the Phillies. Ever since then he's gone in the tank. As soon as he remembers that he isnt a power hitter he will go back to being his average nothing special hitting self. He is not a .195 hitter. He's a round a .250-280 hitter. And he is a good defensive centerfielder. Not sure why you think otherwise.

"I guess since two months tells the whole story 100 percent of the time, then Albert Pujols is a huge bust signing. "

Let's not forget Reyes too. .250 average for a former batting champ? Pfft.