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    • Buster's arbitration numbers
Messages 148468.1 through 148468.2 were deleted
  • To:All
  • 1/16/13

Although the sensible option is buying out his arb years, I'd have no problem if they offered him a 10 year contract.

Whatever Buster gets, it's pretty safe to say he'll earn it.

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  • 1/16/13

" it's stupid to sign a guy long term when he's at the pinnacle of his cost "

This is exactly the time to sign him long-term. If he has another MVP season type season next year his cost will certainly go higher. He's not at the 'pinnacle' of his cost, he can still go a lot higher.

They should work out an Evan Longoria style contract that rewards Posey for what he's done, and buys out his arbitration years at a good savings for the team. Make both sides happy.

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  • 1/16/13
Yeah pay him an extra 4 million a year on arbitration and possibly save 8 a year on the years after.
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Message 148468.6 was deleted
  • 1/16/13

"Try measuring how much higher his value can go vs. how much lower it can go and you'll see my point."

You're trying to claim he's at the highest level he can get to and you are dead wrong. His cost can keep going higher and higher with multiple good seasons, not even 'great' seasons. This is exactly why the Giants signed Bumgarner to the style contract they did. To save money if he keeps performing at a high level.

"He won't sign anywhere near as low as Longoria did. No way."

I never said he would. I said they should sign him to that style contract. I never said the same pay.


Edited 1/16/13   by  RNO13Giants
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Message 148468.8 was deleted
  • 1/17/13

I really think that we are going to try to go long term with him. Even with the injury and the position of concern for future injury, I think the Giants have to try to get any negative publicity around this out of the way.

I think that Buster will either want arbitration years bought out, or go long term...no in between. If we are going to look at both possibilities, I think these are the starting points...

Arbitration buyout: 4 years, 45 million (12.5 million a year)

Long Term: 10 years, 185 million (10 million a year for the next 4 years, 24 million for each of the next 6)

So I guess the question is this....are you willing to pay more later on by protecting yourself from possible injury or performance decline in the next 4 seasons, a la Tim Lincecum? Or, do you put the future of your franchise in Buster Posey to make sure he doesn't play anywhere else.


Edited 1/17/13   by  rebuild08
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  • 1/17/13

The numbers Pagan told the reporters speaking for Scoots at end of last year are about right....

When Scoots said something in the clubhouse the reporters did not know what he said in his native language so they asked Pagan what he said...Pagan "He said he will sign with the Giants for 2013 for a Gazzilion dollars and 50 yrs" .....lol... classic...!!

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  • 1/17/13

Hey rebuild,

I'm thinking $105-110 over 6 seasons, buying out his first 2 years of FA.

It would be foolish for either side to commit to more than 6 years. Let the Giants wrap him up for the rest of his career with his next contract extension at age 32.

My guess is he won't be squatting behind the plate at that point.

LoneStar

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  • 1/17/13

"So you think his value could rise as high as it could fall, at this point in his career? That's absurd. On a value scale of 1-10, he's at 9."

Player contracts don't go off your personal "value scale".

The reason you sign young players out of arbitration is to safeguard yourself from having to pay more year by year if they keep playing good. His contract price can be a lot bigger next year than it is today if he has another good season. It doesn't even need to be another MVP year.

So no, you are still wrong. His price can still go higher if they don't offer a multi-year deal to him.

Example:

Lincecum: 10:$8M, 11:$13M, 12:$18M, 13:$22M
Cain: 07:$0.4M, 08:$0.7M, 09:$2.65M, 10:$4.25M, 11:$6.25M
Bumgarner: 13:$0.75M, 14:$3.75M, 15:$6.75M, 16:$9.75M, 17:$11.5M, 18:$12M, 19:$12M

This is the difference between a player who didn't sign long-term early, and two that did. Do you see the difference? Do you see how signing Posey right now to a long-term deal can save the team a ton of money down the road?

"It seems pretty elementary to me."

And yet you are still wrong. Or will you now backtrack and claim you meant something else?

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  • 1/17/13
Yes of course NeverRightMike will. LOL
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Message 148468.14 was deleted
  • 1/17/13

I get what you are saying and if he was a free agent and could sign whatever deal he was worth I would agree, but are you saying there is no reason to buy out a guys arb years that bleed into his first couple FA? Even though Posey's value is at an all time high he isn't a free agent so his free market value is kinda meaningless because he can't get it. You offer him more than he can get now, and in turn he commits to likely making less than he can once a FA the first couple years. You take the risk of injury sure, but you also take out the risk he wins two more MVPs and is the most expensive player in baseball at that point. I'd buy out his first two years in a second especially since his bat showed it is good enough to be an elite 1b even if he has injury problems at C.

I will admit though while I get the basics of arbitration I still have always felt a little confused about the intricacies of it and like I was missing something. It seems almost every time a guy gets bought out he is near your definition of max value like Longo and Mauer both bought out after MVP type seasons.


Edited 1/17/13   by  madbuster
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Message 148468.16 was deleted
  • 1/17/13
Yeah I get your point, and if we are talking 8 years or more I'd agree, but I was thinking more like 6 years. I think the odds we don't want Buster at almost any cost 4 years from now are very small especially when as I said he has shown his bat can work at 1b. Either way I definitely agree that if to get the job done you are talking near top FA value for those first two years (because he is coming off MVP) then there is no upside to it, and we can get him for that the year before.

Edited 1/17/13   by  madbuster
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Message 148468.18 was deleted
  • 1/18/13

Let's see, he is under control for another 4 years. Usually, a team that wants to buy out arb years also wants at least one FA year.

That would take it to a 5-year in that scenario.

Molina got 5 X $15M I believe, but is not a true comp for obvious reasons.

Longoria is not a good comp either, as I think he was signed before he even completed his first season.

David Wright, who started in 2004 (half-season), got 6/$55M + club option in "Aug" 2006. That was a little less than 2 1/2 seasons into his career. Slash:

2005 = .306 .388 .523 .912 with 27 HR 102 RBI
2006 = .311 .381 .531 .912 with 26 HR 116 RBI

07:$1M, 08:$5M, 09:$7.5M, 10:$10M, 11:$14M, 12:$15M, 13:$16M club option ($1M buyout)

Posey has logged 1255 PA with a career slash of .314 .380 .503 .883

Wright 2004-06 over 1601 PA slash = .306 .375 .527 .902

Very similar ability to hit for average and SLG, along with a high OBP.

Posey has an edge at a more difficult position to find this kind of offensive talent.

Then, we must factor in inflation since that Wright extension. That deal ran through his 8th year, which should mean 2 FA years were bought out, including the club option.

Not sure Posey's camp will go for 2 FA years, so I'll guess that they will agree on 1 FA year bought out. Posey is also a Super Two, which Wright was not, to my knowledge. My guesstimate:

13: $6M, 14: $10M, 15: $12M, 16: $15M, 17: $20M Total = 5 years $63M

Bonus $10M. Total package $73M. AAV $14.6M

Ryan Howard: In his 4th year signed 3-year $54M (AAV $18M) covering 2009,10,11.
In 2010, he signed the mega extension 5-year $125M (AAV $25M) covering 2012-16.

Don't know if it was Howard's or the Phillies' decision to keep the first deal short. In any event, they panicked and gave out the next one at an astronomical price.

Certainly, Howard was the classic cleanup hitter, driving in 100 runs annually, with a lot of bombs. I think in hindsight, if they had lengthen the first deal to 6 years, it would have been a much better situation for the team.

Posey differs from the typical catcher in that he can always switch to 1B. That will temper any doubts about his longevity. Nevertheless, if he ends up commanding an AAV of $25M, it might weigh too heavily on the team.


Edited 1/18/13   by  _bummer_
Edited 1/18/13   by  _bummer_
Edited 1/18/13   by  _bummer_
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  • To:All
  • 1/18/13
I'm going to say 6 years is a good number right about now. 8 years might be a bit too uncertain, but let's face it--we don't want him going anywhere. He reminds me like he will be a Giant for life, and I don't think it will be an issue down the road. But there is also the unknown variable, and I think 6 would be a good figure.
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