-Rogers guy last week says money is not an issue
-Beeston meets with Roy at home.
-Beeston says money is not an issue in re-signing Roy. They can get it done if it makes sense.
-Arnsberg gets fired.

I understand that Cito and Arnsberg were not getting along, but with all of the recent news.. does anyone think that there was a rift between Doc and Arnsberg? I know Roy would never admit to this in public, but it's something that may come out in the next few weeks.

I was always under the impression that Doc and Arnsberg were tight, but maybe we misread the relationship. It seems like Beeston is on a mission to re-sign Doc, and maybe was the type of thing to completely convince him.

What I love about this is that we don't know ANYTHING. AA is keeping all of this stuff in-house and is allowing everyone to keep their dignity.

You can already see a change for the better in this organization.

I don't think there was any rift between Doc and Arnsberg. If the scuttlebut is accurate, the rift was all Cito and Arnsberg also with some of the players.

I'd love to see Doc stay, but doubt that is in the cards. It will be a wild offseason IMO.

Actually I agree with Bob McCown who interprets this as Beeston getting the impression that Halladay will not re-sign, and that next year will be a development year, because there is no way you bring back a manager for a lame duck year unless it's basically a throw away year. That makes the most sense to me. As for Arnie, maybe he wanted to leave, who really knows, but Doc is gone, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody anyhow.

Bobcat thinks Doc is going?

Why the heck would he predict a 120 million payroll without Doc?

No rift, not a chance, imo.

"Actually I agree with Bob McCown who interprets this as Beeston getting the impression that Halladay will not re-sign, and that next year will be a development year, because there is no way you bring back a manager for a lame duck year unless it's basically a throw away year. That makes the most sense to me. As for Arnie, maybe he wanted to leave, who really knows, but Doc is gone, which shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody anyhow."

Best post I've read tonight, well, that's because I literally, and totally agree with your assumption.

Well I think Bob assumed the money would be available should the new GM want it, and I think that may be the case, but if Doc has indicated he wants out, and if the Jays (AA specifically) have assessed the situation as not being able to put together a competitive team in the coming off season, AA may have decided to not take the money, at least not for this off-season, instead choosing to lay some of his own foundation before adding key FA pieces.

Good points, but really, how much of a foundation do we really need?

SP: Romero, Cecil, Rz, Marcum all young, healthy (hopefully anyways), and cheap.
RP: League, Accardo, Roenicke, etc. all young, healthy, and cheap

Hill, Lind, and Snider are all either talented enough to be cornerstone players or close to it.

If there is money there and AA doesn't take it, I'd be surprised. With Doc, this team is a legit DH and a few career seasons away from a 90 win team.

I've been wondering the same thing but is it feasible on a baseball front concerning the Rogers Incorporation. It'd be smarter to save the quid if they aren't going for it in 10'. A plethora of cash in 11' would be much sweeter seeing as the group of eligible is much better than this year.

From 2006-2009 it was "2010 is our year".

It would be a PR disaster if they started the "2011 is our year!" thing.

The young talent is there. Just fking go for it. With a little creativity we could've had Abreu and Dunn last year which would've made us into a contender.

Dunn would've had nothing to do with the Birds, regarding JP, I'm thinking the Jays are fungo'd concerning anything to do with Dunn in the future.

Edit: Abreu signed for 19 million today!! Yikes.....

I think they want to maximize the trade value for Doc, to hold onto him in the hope of competing is a dangerous gamble, especially since this team has quite a few holes that one off season likely won't solve.

We have no clue how the young pitchers will respond in their sophomore season, and no way of knowing how Marcum will respond.

We really don't have enough proven arms in the pen IMO. League and Roenicke are both inconsistent, ditto for Accardo and I think hates being here anyhow, he might not start the season with Toronto.

We need a better third baseman, upgrade at first baseman/DH depending on where Lind ends up; another outfielder; Snider has proven nothing except that he still isn't ready and is still a big maybe; we could use an upgrade behind the plate if possible, a true number 2 starter; and we also need to figure out the SS situation, do we go with Scutty or another direction.

I understand that we are all tired of losing, but trying to force contention when there are so many pieces missing and so many maybe's is foolish.

It's time to let go of the notion of competing in 2010, which quite frankly I already figured would be the case so I'm not that devastated at this point.

If 2010 is a rebuild year then 2011 will be also with Cito retiring that brings in a new coaching staff so 2011 will be another write off. Cito already said that Doc wants to play for a winning team so he will probably leave so that means that the Jays won't have a winning team for a few years yet it's quoted in the front story on the main page. I wish they would just stop talking about Doc behind his back and talk about the direction of the organization.

"I've been wondering the same thing but is it feasible on a baseball front concerning the Rogers Incorporation. It'd be smarter to save the quid if they aren't going for it in 10'. A plethora of cash in 11' would be much sweeter seeing as the group of eligible is much better than this year."

Ya, not many quality free agents out there this year that fit our needs. If Doc isn't coming back then pushing for it this year also seems to make little sense.

As for the money though, one year of cutting another 20 or so million doesn't really increase the amount of money you have going forward all that much from a team perspective, granted it's good business from a Rogers Communications point of view, maybe.

What I mean is that you're going to have an upper limit that likely remains the same, if they're willing to spend 120 they're going to spend it regardless of what last year was, and one years worth of savings doesn't mean we see that number rise, because salary increase is a multi-year commitment.

Also, if you rebuild and go with a 60 million dollar roster over 120 mill version, you don't really save 60 million, you might not save anything, you might even lose money.

Gotta keep in mind that the truth is a lot of people/casual fans aren't going to watch or show up for a 2010 rebuild year minus Doc versus a 120 go for it season.

You have to also acknowledge, and I bring this up all the time, that fixed costs remain the same even when you shed salary, 2008's 98 million dollar payroll generated 170 million in revenue, and the Jays just broke even... that's a fairly set cost of 70 million dollars to run the franchise beyond on field payroll.

So, do we really save any money? I don't think we'll save much if anything, salary in this town next season will determine revenue, you cut salary, you cut revenue and those 60-80 million in fixed costs loom large.

What we really accomplish then is not saving money, but choosing wisely when to spend it.

"From 2006-2009 it was "2010 is our year".

It would be a PR disaster if they started the "2011 is our year!" thing.""

I don't know if the general public even really cares anymore, I think Toronto sports fans are generally numb right now. But you're right, I don't expect more than 20 000 fans to average next years games if we rebuild, patience of the fans has been tried.

Rogers knows that as well, which is why, in my last post and at other times, I have stated that they might feel the need to go big next year to save money, as odd as that may sound at first.

A rebuilding season after 8 years of rebuilding with Well's 21 million and BJ's phantom 10 million almost guarantees the Jays lose money.

The rift is more likely between Doc and Cito. Cito sounds very content describing the fact that Doc will likely leave. Did anyone hear his quotes today?? Cito also said something to the extent 'Arnsberg only talks with Doc'.

So Arnsberg and Doc are having private consversations without Cito. That must of really teed Cito off. At the beginning of the year Cito mentioned the Clemens tried to run him out of town in 1997. Clemens did not like Cito's moves. Could Doc of had a similar reaction??

"Clemens did not like Cito's moves. Could Doc of had a similar reaction??"

Not a chance. Doc is a far more classy guy than Clemens. Clemens is/was full of himself, and Doc is not.

"because there is no way you bring back a manager for a lame duck year"

I keep hearing this lame duck thing on the radio and on here. I really don't agree that Cito is a lame duck manager. I think of that as a manager in the last year of his contract who actually wants to stay around, or where his situation is unsure. The type of manager who is very likely to be fired if his team struggles. Cito is retiring to a different job next year (at least that's the spin). I don't think there is going to be a lot of pressure on him in regards to getting canned this next season unless there is a another mutiny like situation. He has a job lined up with the same organization for four years after. Doesn't seem lame duckish to me.

ht tp://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/bluejays/article/719330--griffin-jays-shuffle-won-t-end-clubhouse-crisis