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    • The Success Cycle.. er, succession
  • To:All
  • 2/23/05
  • sunnfun1

KM in 1997 - I have a 5-year plan. (it was a dud);

KM in 1999 - build me a park and I'll spend $50M on payroll ( happened once);

KM in 2001 - I have a 3 year plan (it was a dud);

KM in 2003 - we need financial flexibility (he dumped everyone);

KM in 2005 - "We have to start winning, and that will take our payroll up." (he's heading toward a nightmare 100 loss season as it stands)

---------------

Organization's go through cycles. They stink and get good draft picks, the picks blossom, the org spends a few dollars for impact players to surround the picks, and the team wins a division. Then the team sells off the impact players and rides on the picks, they reduce payroll, and then they stink again.

It's a vicious cycle. The problem with the Pirates is, they lost draft opps with Cam and now KM refuses to sign serious impact picks. The end result is that our farm is devoid of any real talent. Sure, there are a few guys that will help here and there, and there is some promise in the guys 4 years off. But, no true impact players other than maybe Duke, and that isn't really saying a lot considering the number of years we have stunk and had good draft opportunities.

Now the org wants us all to believe that we have miracle players - guys like McClouth, Eldred, Snell, and Duke are supposed to turn this org around. They are 'the strength' of the organization. They are 'our future'.

The only problem is, there are no impact players to build around them (Bay and Perez will both be gone), no money to spend for impact players, and no winning to create additional revenue.

Boy, are we in trouble.

Now, don't go blaming baseball for our miseries. That's a bunch of pookie. This org has tons of cash it can spend - it just isn't spending it on player salaries. Nor is it going to. And, if by some miracle they do spend some money, it certainly won't be an impact player - much less a guy who will be around by the time our 'greatness within' develops 4 years from now.

This org can whine all day long about what is wrong with baseball, but when the org receives about 1/2 of the yearly player payroll in the form of revenue sharing, there is no excuse to not spend. When MLB gave the org the AS game, they assured the org 2M in ticket sales for 2 years. Will they spend it on player salaries? No.

They never have and they never will.

Instead of a success cycle, we are in a doomed continuum all because of poor, inept management policies that desire to make the org a business instead of a winner. Profit to the shareholders means more to these guys than fielding a winning team.

That is succession. And that's why the org needs new owners who have their heart in Pittsburgh, a fire to win, and the brains to pull it off in a new success cycle.

BTW - the difference between success and succession is NO I. ;)

Edited 2/23/2005 1:36 am ET by sunnfun1



Edited 2/23/2005 1:40 am ET by sunnfun1
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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

there's no WAY this team even comes CLOSE to losing 100 games...

jmo

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  • 2/23/05
  • sunnfun1

the way the roster sits today it projects out to 97 losses Tiz. No run production, players batting in anti-OPS positions, only four reasonably strong starters, but two of the four put so many balls in play that our third to last defensive efficiency group in MLB last year won't stand a chance.

The only bright spot is the pen - IF it holds up.

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  • 2/23/05
  • throwbackkid

Tiz,

Unless Wells and Fogg pitch up to potential, I don't think a 100 loss season is out of the question. I'll assume Ollie gives us more of the same as last year and will provide 15 wins. Don't know what Redman will do or a 5th Starter which is frankly, where I think the season lies. We'll need Lawton to duplicate Jason's OBP so that the ever improving Wilsons and Bay can start knocking in some runs with regularity. I don't like the 6th - 8th spots at all from what I can see and the 5th spot might also be suspect. Eric Byrnes would change that in my mind.

To sum up, I think that for our Buccos to be successful this season (whatever success is defined as) They are going to need excellence from Redman and #5 Pitcher and the outfield really needs to be improved (much more consistent) from last year both offensively and defensively. I believe the bench will be a huge improvement.

TBK

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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

"the way the roster sits today it projects out to 97 losses Tiz"

I read that when you posted it earlier, but I just don't buy it...

we'll see who's right...

no way we touch 100 losses this year.

we'll see.

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  • 2/23/05
  • buccoholic

You've got to use the George Costanza rule with Sunny:

Whatever he says, the opposite is correct.

Using that theory I think the Bugs will win 97 in '05.

-How is this lineup weaker than last years? Is he talking about Kendalls' singles machine with no speed left to get off of 1B?

-Why does Kip Wells have to improve to keep us out of a 100 loses? Did he contribute anything we couldn't have got from Nelson Figeroua last year. If healthy Kip can't help but do better this year and if not our AAA starters are simply the best in this clubs history (until proven otherwise).

-Why does he not listen when DL says he will be adding a bat to the outfield by the beginning of the season? DL has been very clear since he got here what offseason objectives are and he always delivers (even if he does pull out a Simon or a Mondesi occasionally, Hey, John Schuerholz is risking RF to Raul this spring).

*Okay, we're not going to win 97...but to say we are going to lose 97 is almost as preposterous (almost).



Edited 2/23/2005 10:44 am ET by buccoholic
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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

I don't think that Lawton needs to duplicate Jason's OBP in order for us to be successful, because Lawton does things that are good that kendall cannot (IE hit for much more power than kendall)... if Lawton leads off and can give us .360 OBP I'll be happy. Not that I wouldn't be happy with a .400 OBP from him - course I would... but i don't think that it _must_ be that high to be considered a successful signing.

If lawton can score 100 runs, I'll be happy.

Mark Redman? Have you seen his numbers away from oakland last season? ERA under 3. He'll provide us with a better-than-suppan season if he's healthy.

I will have to defer to Kip and believe that he's healthy 'til he proves otherwise - and if he _is_ healthy, he should be much more like the '03 kip than the '04 kip.

Josh is about as consistent over the course of a whole season as anyone else on this roster - even though he's not very consistent from game to game (if that makes sense). I think Josh knows this is his make or break year.... and I expect him to sack up and give us another 12 wins and hopefully a much better ERA. Last Season Josh was 5-3 with a 3.32 ERA.... I hope he can build on that.

"I don't like the 6th - 8th spots at all"

Not sure you're giving Castillo enough credit... I expect him to be much improved... and I think that Cota has a decent chance to contribute if he's given the chance...

and Wiggy is going to impress some folks this year, imo... just watch.

the mets fans weren't so upset about him leaving for no reason.

of course, as you know, I'm an optimist when it comes to the bucs... so who knows.

but i do believe that 78-82 wins is a fairly reasonable prediction.

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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

"You've got to use the George Costanza rule with Sunny:

Whatever he says, the opposite is correct."

LOL

sunny is welcome to his opinion... but i just don't get how this team is supposed to be worse than last year. we only lost kendall, but we added lawton, and bay, castillo and wiggy should all put up better numbers than last year...

if craig and jack can both continue to get better/more consistent...

I just think that for us to lose 100 this year EVERY single thing that could possibly go wrong has to go wrong...

but only a few things have to go right for us to hit 75+ wins...

and if EVERYTHING goes RIGHT, we have a chance to win more than that...

i don't expect everything to go right anymore than i expect everything to go wrong, so we're very likely to be middle of the road... if you take 85 wins (everything right) and 62 wins (everything wrong) and average them, you come up with 74 wins.

which, granted, still scuks, but it's no where near as bad as 100 losses.

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  • 2/23/05
  • sunnfun1

"but I just don't buy it.."

I appreciate that.

Each year for the last 4 I have projected this org's losses within 7%. Of course, when I made my projections I usually felt the roster was set. But even last year after getting Mondesi, I still came dang close.

This year, there are a few other factors that I have yet to mention over the winter that play into it too Tiz.

One, I don't believe Ollie is going to be as effective. Oh, I think his K rate will be high and I think he'll win 12 or more, but I don't see Ollie as a smart player. He will come into ST with too much confidence, he will enter the year thinking his arm will get him out of jams, and he will hit more of the 2003 type bumpy roads. As I stated in earlier threads over the winter, I expect to see Ollie on the DL some this year.

Two, I think Redman will be the ace this year. The good part about this is that he'll probably leave games where he has a lead (12 - 16 games) and then it will be up to the pen to nail down the W. The bad thing about it will be that Redman allows too many balls in play and our D is going to be one of the worst in MLB.

Three, Wells probably won't come out of his funk until after the AS game. He knows he is trade bait, he knows he needs to perform to get $$, and he still has lingering questions about his stuff that will get to him early in the year. I see Wells on the DL early for a short period and then him putting up #2 type starter numbers from June or so on.

Four, everyone just has to admit the 5th starter scenario is a real gamble. The org countered that with the 4-man rotation plan. But, the rotation guys won't allow it - they aren't going to allow the org to ruin their arms. I know that for a fact. Count on DL to be filling the 5th role with no less than 6 guys this year in an attempt to put someone on the field to help the team. I think Ryan will end up in the pen and I think Williams will have a mediocre season. The sleeper is Ritchie.

Five. as said above, our D is just plain awful. With the addition of Lawton we can almost bank on the worst D in MLB, especially with Jason's numbers gone. Bad D's lose games.

Six. Mac has produced well with his past groups. This year will be VERY trying for Mac and when Mac gets under the gun, he tinkers.. he tinkers too much. I expect Mac to come unglued about the end of June (look at the schedule from April 15th to June 26th - whoa). The second half will end up being a return of 'the freak show' of 1997 (not the good freak show unfortunately).

Seven - and most important. I don't think this pen is going to live up to our high expectations. Johnston, Gonzo, Mesa - there guys aren't really producers.. some will argue with me about Gonzo but we have shown this winter why Gonzo's numbers don't add up. I expect this to be his breakout year but I think he does too which is going to put a lot of pressure on him. Too much I think. Mesa and Johnston are 'who knows' players.. you're never sure who your going to get with them.

Further, we will have too much movement going on in the pen this year for the stability we need. Vogelsong in/out, Williams in/out, Peterson up/down, Bradley up/down, Stewert in/out.. it just isn't in the cards to have a repeat of 2004.

I think the bright spots will be Redman, Santiago (believe it or not), Ritchie, Wells in the second half, Ollie overall, Castillo breaking out a bit more offensively, Ward showing new youth, Macko having his breakout year, and Torres with his knockout punch.

Failures (not producing to our expectation) I expect: Wiggy, Cota, Tike, Lawton, Bay will have a turn down year, Fogg, Craig, and Jack.

JMHO



Edited 2/23/2005 11:06 am ET by sunnfun1
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  • 2/23/05
  • hopngator2

Tiz,

But tiz, didn't you hear?

Lawton and McClendon were fighting in the clubhouse!
With knives, machine guns and I "heard" Lawton even called in Close Air Support to defend his position...(In the batting order)

True.

LOL

SEMPER FI PITTSBURGH

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  • 2/23/05
  • throwbackkid

Tiz,

Rather than go through the Litany of things that you believe will or should happen, I very much agree that close to .500 is in the cards for the Buccos if most of what you say happens. After 12 years, I cannot convince myself that the stars will line up for us. Funny that neither of us mentioned Mac even though I believe he is an influence too.

TBK

  • Reply to this Message
  • 2/23/05
  • rlpost

So if this team projects to lose 97 games why would you want to trade two top ten prospects in the org for Byrnes???? What is Byrnes going to do improve this team 5 games.

DL might have made some bad moves but listening to your moves this team would go nowhere. You can't fix a hole in dam by sticking your finger in it and by trading for Byrnes who will only be with the Pirates for 2 years.

DL has finally built up the farm system where there are prospects in AA and AAA who will be making their way thru Pittsburgh starting this year. None of the Pirate prospects are given alot of props due to the failure of the Pirates the last 10 years. But where was BP or BA noticing Gonzo or Castillo (who will be a top 5 2B this year in the NL)

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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

basically what it comes down to is I'm an optimist and you're a pessimist.

we'll see which is reality by the time the season ends.

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  • 2/23/05
  • istherhope

If the Pirates have a key injury to someone like Jack, Bay or Perez...100 losses is definetely in sight.

There are not a lot of "assumptions" on this team. But there are a lot of "If's."

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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

LOL!

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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

"Rather than go through the Litany of things"

sorry i was so long-winded!! :D

"After 12 years, I cannot convince myself that the stars will line up for us."

I can understand that...

I may be a fool for being optimistic, but that's the way i am :)

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  • 2/23/05
  • bannednoast

this team won significantly more games last year than 62 even though they had losses and injuries and what not...

in 2001 it took three devastating injuries and a much less talented team than this one to lose 100 games.

one injury would definitely hurt us, but it would, imo, take 2 or 3 very serious injuries for us to lost 100.

again... we'll see.

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  • 2/23/05
  • buccoholic

The team that lost 100 games had several starting players flirting with or below .200 most of the season, it came into the spring HOPING that Fransisco Cordova and Jason Schmidt would come back ahead of schedule to bolster a rotation that was 3 deep to start with. People dismiss the acquisitions of players like Wigginton and Santiago and Lawton and whoever the last Mystery Outfielder To Be Acquired ends up being but these are guys who are healthy with a track record of not $ucking. If we had a stockpile of young arms in 2001 like we have now no way we lose 100 games.

You are being generous with your tolerance Tiz, people who predict 100 losses aren't being pessimistic, they are being ignorant of the facts.

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  • 2/23/05
  • hopngator2

buccoholic,

I think it's safe to say that no one "knows" how many games the Pirates will win / lose this year.

Why?

Because they haven't played a game yet.

Sure, it's fun to make predictions; but when predictions morph into "rote" that's when I tune out.

SEMPER FI PITTSBURGH

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  • 2/23/05
  • buccoholic
All I predict with certainty is that my season tickets are a bad investment when we lose so I might as well hope for the best and enjoy the Kool-Aid.
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