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    • New Scale for HOF
  • To:All
  • 1/15/13
  • Waygur

We can set new parameters for election into the HOF and do away with all of this debate. We will employ a point system where anyone archiving 100 points is automatically inducted. However we need your suggestions as to how the system and associated points will work.

everyone starts with 60 points. and then.........

1. Anyone who ever played for the New York Yankees. +25 points.
2. Relief Pitcher. -5 points
3. Primarily American League. -1 point
4. DH was your principle position. -5 points

Discuss

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/15/13
  • smacman101

Should it be rated in 4 different catagories, 25% each toward the total score, offense, defense, fielding, base running

Pitchers could be wins/saves, era, clutch performance, mound presence?

5% added to score for each mvp, golden glove, cy young, roy, 2% for every all-star team and silver slugger?

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/15/13
  • jd40mm
Start by subtracting if you played for Yankees. They got more than their fair share of benefit over the last century or so. Rizzuto? Give me a break.
  • Reply to this Message
  • To:All
  • 1/16/13
  • Waygur
5. If you share chicken dinners on the road with your mistress. No points up or down.
  • Reply to this Message
  • To:All
  • 1/16/13
  • Waygur
6. If you played for the Dodgers. +19 points.
7. If you played for the Red Sox. +16 points.
8. If you were associated with a team that got caught fixing games. -30 points.
9. if you played for the Seatle Piolots. -14 points.
  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/16/13
  • deadhead68
I'm glad Rizzuto is in the Hall Of Fame, I know his numbers don't exactly jump out at you with a .273 career average, 877 runs scored and 563 rbi. Keep in mind he did sacrifice three early years of his career fighting for our country in WWII. He was still pretty productive at the plate with 651 walks and striking out only 398 times. He was also a good fielder and led A.L. shortstops in double plays three times and played in five all star games. In 1950 he was A.L. MVP with an albiet uncharacteristic .324 average, collecting 200 hits and scoring 125 runs. I know one season does not make a career but even Ted Williams argued that Rizzuto was the man who made the difference between the Yankees and Red Sox. In a speech that helped get Rizzuto into the Hall Of Fame Williams said, "If we'd had Rizzuto in Boston, we'd have won all those pennants instead of New York." Growing up in Connecticut and being a Tigers fan I had the option of watching Yankees games or Red Sox games and I'd always watch the Yankees only because of being able to listen to Rizzuto and his countless stories and odd comments. It was nice when they were playing the Tigers because he ALWAYS had kind words for Sparky. Holy Cow he got all of that one, that ball is outta here...oh wait the right fielder's camped under it for the out. RIP Phil.
  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/16/13
  • Waygur
that was the best defense of Rizutto's place in the HOF yet.
  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/16/13
  • deadhead68
Thanks, although I'm not old enough to have been able to see Rizzuto play I've always had a great respect for him. Even though I'm not a Yankees fan I always looked forward to hearing Rizzuto, to give you an idea, I would imagine he would be comparable to the great Ernie Harwell. He was that good. I never had the pleasure to hear Ernie do a game but I do know where he stands within the hearts of Tiger fans.
  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/16/13
  • Tigrrman

everyone starts with 60 points. and then.........

1. Anyone who ever played for the New York Yankees. +25 points.
2. Relief Pitcher. -5 points
3. Primarily American League. -1 point
4. DH was your principle position. -5 points

5. If you share chicken dinners on the road with your mistress. No points up or down.

6. If you played for the Dodgers. +19 points.
7. If you played for the Red Sox. +16 points.
8. If you were associated with a team that got caught fixing games. -30 points.
9. if you played for the Seatle Piolots. -14 points.

And now ...

10. If your name starts with "B" ..and ends with "Inge". +200 points

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/16/13
  • jd40mm
Some nice things to point out, now compare his resume with Trammell's and you'll see the source of my sarcasm about Rizzuto. You simply can't keep Trammell out of the HOF while a Phil Rizzuto is there. But, I did like your post in defense of the guy.
  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/17/13
  • CopaMedium

A popular figure on a team dynasty which captured 10 AL titles and seven World Championships in his 13 seasons, Rizzuto holds numerous World Series records for shortstops. His best statistical season was 1950, when he was named the American League's Most Valuable Player. Despite this offensive peak, Rizzuto was a classic "small ball" player, noted for his strong defense in the infield. The slick-fielding Rizzuto is also regarded as one of the best bunters in baseball history.

When he retired, his 1,217 career double plays ranked second in major league history, trailing only Luke Appling's total of 1,424, and his .968 career fielding average trailed only Lou Boudreau's mark of .973 among AL shortstops. After his playing career, Rizzuto enjoyed a 40-year career as a radio and television sports announcer for the Yankees.

Please name all Tram's MLB accomplishments during his playing days and after he retired?

Should Tram continue another 10 years as a coach and/or manager, he may get elected by the Veterans Committee also.

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  • 1/17/13
  • rklewis2

I don't think that anyone that played for the Seattle Pilots could even sniff the HOF.

So, former Pilot = -infinity for election to the hall.

----------------------

Seriously:

The current system of subjective voting, based on location of the player (east or west coast are most popular, obviously), then secondly how popular they were with the media, makes for some stupid elections to the hall.

First off, players can be objectively looked at/compared to both their peers at the time they played, and compared, favorably or not so, with historical and current players. From there, an objective decision could be made as to whether they deserve mention with the all time greats, they're borderline, or they're overblown. Whether or not they talked with the media simply should NOT be in the election equation - but it is.

Perhaps if there were some starting point for judging players objectively - maybe using a single point of reference, like the Bill James books, it would be much easier to determine "worthiness."

If such a system were used, we wouldn't be complaining about the fact that players like Tram and Lou are still looking in. They belong. They rate high on the all time scale for each of their positions. We also wouldn't see players that don't belong getting elected. It's all a sham, and has been so since the beginning.

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  • 1/17/13
  • Waygur

Right! What rklewis2* said.

Also its about as difficult to travel to Cooperstown NY as it is to get into the HOF.

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/17/13
  • ty mccobb

Don't forget WAR.

They need to vote in Mike Trout and Ben Zobrist NOW, and skip the waiting period.

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/17/13
  • ToledoFan

I just read up on the Pilots.

Interesting story.

Bad team for sure. Didn't know they only played one year before moving.

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/17/13
  • ktpinnacle

They're letting guys in now based on weight?

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/17/13
  • deadhead68

Point well taken, I agree with you on that. There's no way Trammell shouldn't be in Cooperstown compared to Rizzuto and even Pee Wee Reese. Alan hit .285 for his career with over 2000 hits, 1200 runs scored, and 1000 rbi. He batted .300 or better 7 times in his career, was the 1984 World Series MVP ,and should have been the A.L. MVP in 1987 when he had career highs in batting average .343, hits 205, runs scored 109, hr 28, rbi 105, obp .402 and a slugging percentage of .551. I understand George Bell also had an outstanding year, however, if you also factor in the Tigers sweeping Bell's Blue Jays in a head to head season-ending series to take the A.L East Division than it certainly appears Trammell was snubbed for whatever reason. Its not like Toronto is a big market team such as Boston, New York, or Los Angeles where he might have picked up some extra votes.

I also believe Lou Whitaker should be in Cooperstown as well, Sweet Lou's statistics are quite similar to Alan's with a .276 career average, 0ver 2000 hits, 1300 runs scored, and 1000 rbi. He only batted over .300 twice in his career (if you count 1994 when he batted .301 in 372 plate appearances) but he was remarkably consistant throughout scoring 70 or more runs 11 times and 90 or more 5 times. Lou was also named the A.L. ROOKIE OF THE YEAR in 1978 at the age of 21 when he batted .285 and scored 71 runs.

Looking at their offensive numbers is pretty impressive as it is but then when you factor in the stellar defense they played together throught their careers forming one of the best double play combinations I've ever seen, and playing together in the major leagues for 19 years (even longer when you factor in their minor league play) is surely remarkable.

I believe they both should have had more all-star appearances as well but with Trammell he had to go up against Robin Yount early on and then Cal Ripken Jr. so it seemed like he was always overshadowed by someone else. As for Whitaker I think he was just underrated during his career and he still is as the H.O.F voting clearly shows.

At least we were fortunate enough to have followed them throughout their brilliant careers year after year for 19 years always knowing what to expect and hardly ever being disappointed. Even if their bats had an off year you could always count on the superb defense. If you factor in all that and then add to it that they had Sparky Anderson managing them then I think people will look back many years from now and include these years along with the early 1900's, 1934, 1935, 1945, and 1968 as some of Detroit's greatest teams, of course winning it all in 1984 doesn't hurt.

Honerable mention should go out to Lance Parrish, Jack Morris, Darrell Evans, Tom Brookens, Larry Herndon, Chet Lemon, Kirk Gibson, Dan Petry, Milt Wilcox, Willie Hernandez, Auriel Lopez (spelled wrong?) and Dave Bergman who would come in late in the games to give us some slick fielding at first base. I'm sure there are plenty I've left out but I'll also do a little shout out for one of my favorite Tigers as a kid, Richie Hebner. He only played there a few seasons but for some reason I took an instant liking to him. In the off-season Richie was a grave digger and someone asked him if he was any good at the job or something to that effect and Richie replied, "I must be, nobody's dug themselves out yet."

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  • 1/17/13
  • rklewis2

Oh yes.

You need to read "Ball Four."

Most of the entire 1969 Pilot season is documented in that book.

One of the all time classic sports books.

  • Reply to this Message
  • 1/17/13
  • rklewis2

Both Lou and Tram rank in about the top 12 at their positions all time, according to James.

To me, that's pretty compelling, when viewing them objectively.

I mean, I know WE'VE got a bias for them - but their career stats also have a bias. It's just that the majority of the idiots that vote for players overlook players like that. A smaller market player has be much better than their peers to get noticed/remembered.

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  • 1/17/13
  • Tigrrman

Alan Trammell was my favorite Tiger for many years. I am totally biased in his favor. In fact, comparisons via traditional stats and sabermetrics tend can be presented that show Trammell is as worthy of HOF as nearly any other SS already voted in.

But, ..are we missing something? How does Trammell compare to someone like T. Fernandez? Would anyone here favor Fernandez being inducted into HOF?

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