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" I am sick and tired of the "brainwashing" accusation that you and Kenny "

Well you'd better get used to it because that is exactly what it is. You take these kids and you scare the sh*t out of them with the eternal consequences of not following your rules. Its not about right or wrong, smoking or drinking. Its psychological manipulation that causes many kids much suffering, especially if they are relatively intelligent and start to question or even want to break away. This all comes from a religion that purports that their god gave them free will.

" brainwashing - forcible indoctrination into a new set of attitudes and beliefs
indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically "

Free will?

"The problem is really that anyone would believe Christianity in the first place. "

Here is what they don't see....when they raise their kids in their belief system the kids believe it because that is all they hear from their parents. Those who see through it go through emotional h*ll trying to reconcile what they are seeing with what they have had forced on them since they were very young.

"Here is what they don't see....when they raise their kids in their belief system the kids believe it because that is all they hear from their parents. Those who see through it go through emotional h*ll trying to reconcile what they are seeing with what they have had forced on them since they were very young."

Yes, but if Christianity is the way and the light as Christian parents believe, then this torment is either necessary, due to the parents' own shortcomings in convincing the child or is the child's own doing (or something like that). The only reason you believe it's wrong to put the child through this is because you think that Christianity is wrong so he's either going to grow up believing lies or he's going to grow up with the torment of fighting against lies. Without this assumption that Christianity's wrong (or at the very least, that certainty in Christianity as truth is wrong), though, there's nothing the parent's have done wrong because they're just teaching their son the necessary truths of salvation.

So in order to demonstrate how the parents are doing something wrong, you have to address the truth value of Christianity...which doesn't really get us anywhere.

"I won't accuse you of "making a choice"."

Because you'd be saying the same of yourself

There is so much BS in your posts that I don't know where to start. First of all, consider the fact that YOU didn't go to church (I assume that), and the fact that YOU never discussed religion, is "persuasion", the term I'm going to use throughout, indirect but powerful. Why wouldn't they follow the beliefs of the parent who played ball with them? YOU are the parent who never made them go to catechism.

Oh wow. When I look at the broadest definitions of brainwashing, I find that your teachers are brainwashing their students. Wut? The kids are threatened, (as you like to say), that if they don't learn stuff THE WAY the teachers want them to, their grades will suffer.

"brainwashing - forcible indoctrination into a new set of attitudes and beliefs
indoctrination - teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically "

I'm not sure where you got that quote, but FORCIBLE ?. Ridiculous. Yes, I went to Sunday School as a kid which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I wasn't forced. Although I believed what I was taught, I never walked the walk especially in the years I spent in the US Navy, and it was many years before I made a commitment of faith.

"Brainwashing is the attempt to change the thoughts and beliefs of another person against their will" Sure didn't work with your kids though. Wait, your actions were persuasive also, no matter how many times you might deny it. So, they were brainwashed.

Yes, free will. Your kids exercised free will. Millions of people exercised free will by rejecting God. Everyone has the free will to accept or reject God. Brain washed? You're kidding.

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It has inspired WAY, WAY more good. In fact, it wouldn't even be close.
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How many major cities have orphanages because of churches? How many churches feed homeless people? How many different churches or at least organizations that are faith based have homeless shelters? How many people overseas have medicines that they wouldn't have if it wasn't for missionary type programs? This could go on. My gosh, one of the big reasons for people coming to live in America was being able to practice their beliefs in the manner they wanted. I would call that something good from religion.
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Sure, there has been some terrible things have been done in the name of religion. I don't think anyone's going to deny that. Jesus and the Apostle Paul actually spoke against religion.

"How many major cities have orphanages because of churches? How many churches feed homeless people? How many different churches or at least organizations that are faith based have homeless shelters? How many people overseas have medicines that they wouldn't have if it wasn't for missionary type programs? This could go on. My gosh, one of the big reasons for people coming to live in America was being able to practice their beliefs in the manner they wanted. I would call that something good from religion."

How many planes have been flown into buildings? How many wars have been started? How many scientific advances have been suppressed? How many genocides have been committed? How many children have been molested? How many women have been stoned to death? How many races have been enslaved with religious justifications? How many women have had their rights denied? How many innocent people have been killed by suicide bombs? How many people have been burned at the stake for being heretics/witches/etc? How much money have those churches leeched off society? How many people have gotten aids because the pope said condoms are evil?

I have a hard time giving a church credit for giving some money to feed the homeless when the leaders of that church live in the Vatican. It's not the churches that deserve the credit for those actions, it's the people who volunteer their time and money IMO.

There are obviously some benefits of religion, but you can't conclude that they outweigh the detriments unless you actually take into account what the detriments are. You can't just say "Religion has encouraged charity" or "Religion has started wars" and leave it at that; you have to WEIGH the positives against the negatives instead of placing one in the spotlight and throwing the other under a rug. And if you can't do that, it's more accurate to admit you don't know than to make up an answer at random.

Side note: People being able to practice their beliefs in whatever way they want is a benefit of the ABILITY to be religious, not the STATE of being religious.

"There are obviously some benefits of religion, but you can't conclude that they outweigh the detriments unless you actually take into account what the detriments are. You can't just say "Religion has encouraged charity" or "Religion has started wars" and leave it at that; you have to WEIGH the positives against the negatives instead of placing one in the spotlight and throwing the other under a rug. And if you can't do that, it's more accurate to admit you don't know than to make up an answer at random. "

It's still impossible to quantify. How many homeless people do you have to feed to balance out 9/11? How many orphans do you have to take in to make up for the Salem witch trials? I've got no f-king clue. Any numbers you try to attach to that will be arbitrary at best.

I could take the position that indoctrination is wrong in a system that claims we have free will. If that is the case then they are lying about the free will.

BS?...look at what you wrote.

"There is so much BS in your posts that I don't know where to start. First of all, consider the fact that YOU didn't go to church (I assume that), and the fact that YOU never discussed religion, is "persuasion", the term I'm going to use throughout, indirect but powerful. Why wouldn't they follow the beliefs of the parent who played ball with them? YOU are the parent who never made them go to catechism. "

First they went to catholic school 5 days per week. The nuns discussed religion with them on a regular basis. They took them to church every Tuesday...yes boring church. The kids didn't hear that from me, they figured it out on their own and would tell me about it. The nuns also displayed all sorts of nutty behavior which I didn't. I did not say anything other than "oh well, nothing bad really happened, don't worry about it...there are more important things in life, etc. They made their own decisions. I guess the religion itself wasn't enough to keep them involved without my help, or was it the goofy nuns that turned them off?

So considering that the religious educators and the parents are all on the same page, what chance does a kid have of making his own decision based upon free will? Virtually none. Its no different than what the communists and n*azis did when indoctrinating their youth. Train them when they're little so they will be obedient subjects for life.

"Oh wow. When I look at the broadest definitions of brainwashing, I find that your teachers are brainwashing their students. Wut? The kids are threatened, (as you like to say), that if they don't learn stuff THE WAY the teachers want them to, their grades will suffer."

Oh yes that really compares with telling lies about burning in h*ll for eternity. Besides the kids who don't perform in school don't care about bad grades anyway so its not a viable threat. The kids who perform well do so not for grades but because they want an education so they can prosper as adults. They also feel good about the achievement. Your analogy doesn't work.

The definition is online. You may not have been forced but you know d*mned well that most kids are. You brought this up in the other thread when you said my kids rejected religion because I wasn't involved. Should I have forced them to go? Most parents force their kids to go.

No I am not kidding. You raise a kid in a particular religion and tell them that they will suffer some horrible fate for eternity if they reject it and you don't think that is brainwashing? What kid is going to say "I quit, I don't care if I burn for eternity." Even if a kid tried that his parents would be all over his butt until he conformed. Not free will...no where even near free will. As I said in another post....this is no different than how the hitler youth were indoctrinated for life. They justified their actions too with things like its good for the German race and everyone else is inferior, just like you justify your indoctrination of kids by saying you're teaching them the right way and the other faiths are wrong.

"How many planes have been flown into buildings? etc"

Thank you for writing that as you saved me the trouble.

"Side note: People being able to practice their beliefs in whatever way they want is a benefit of the ABILITY to be religious, not the STATE of being religious. "

True, that is a governmental benefit.

The point is that you asked if it has CAUSED more good or bad and their beliefs do neither, their actions do. Believing someone else will go to heII isnt actually doing bad.

" Believing someone else will go to heII isnt actually doing bad."

If people's beliefs stopped there, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But religions usually don't stop there.

Super. If you want to discuss actions in this then do so, but Kenny wasnt talking action, he was only talking belief.

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Edited 4/27/2012 10:48 pm by TheeDogg

"what chance does a kid have of making his own decision based upon free will? Virtually none."

But your kids did, so how can say that they have virtually no chance. Can't have it both ways.

"Oh yes that really compares with telling lies about burning in h*ll for eternity. "

1. It's only your opinion that it's a lie.

2. How do you know that this occurs? If you say that your kids told you that, I'll call to your attention that you said you never discussed religion or catechism with them, so how do you know?

3. If you want to talk about Manchurian Candidate type of brainwashing, I'll concede that might well take place, but not in the type of churches with which I've been affiliated, which are many for many years. "Forcing"? Of you mean your ex making the kids go to SS, that's one thing, but that's not "forcing" in the context of the definition. No, I don't d*mned well know, and only your hatred makes you "know" it.

"You brought this up in the other thread when you said my kids rejected religion because I wasn't involved"

Don't believe I ever said that. In fact, I most recently said that you're actions of unbelief influenced them. Like, how many times did you roll your eyes when they told you something from SS? Or how many times did you say, "I don't want to hear it", when they wanted to talk about it.

That's all for now,I'm tired and PO'd at the Giants right now.